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Sound difference between High\Low Gain Setting when volume matched?

Fraxo

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In a Dac+Amp that has more that one gain setting (that is switchable) - will it simply produce the exact same sound but with a different amount of amplification, or could there be actual differences in sound when volume is exactly matched?

The specific device in Topping DX3 Pro+ I got for my nephew.

Thanks! :)
 
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Doodski

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will it simply produce the exact same sound but with a different amount of amplification, or could there be actual differences in sound when volume is exactly matched?
There is a difference in the THD+N as is shown in these graphs. I doubt you can hear the difference though. The THD+N is wayyy down there.
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charleski

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Amir did a post on this a few years ago.
Higher gain will always mean higher noise, but frankly the noise levels are all so low that I wouldn’t worry about it.
 

wwenze

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Gain setting matters with IEM. Klipsch X10 for example is 120dB/V SPL.

That Topping at low gain... max output(? max of what?) But let's just say @ 2V with 0.0001% noise = -120dB w.r.t. 2V. That is -114dB w.r.t. 1V.
With the IEM that would cause 6dB of noise.
If high gain is +10dB worse than low gain as seen in the review, then with the IEM the noise would be 16dB. Just a whisper but irritating.
 
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ADU

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Fwiw, here's a link to my previous post that also discussed a little about the above....

 
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ADU

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I'll take one more crack at formulating a response on this, since I think this was a pretty interesting question by the OP...

In a Dac+Amp that has more that one gain setting (that is switchable) - will it simply produce the exact same sound but with a different amount of amplification, or could there be actual differences in sound when volume is exactly matched?

I think there could potentially be several different factors that could influence this. How likely they are in a particular setup though (like the one the OP is using, for example) is something I can't really be sure of.

For starters, I think wwenze is probably correct that both the characteristics of the amp, and also the load or headphone probably need to be taken into account to really answer this type of question. And what I think he's essentially sayin (or maybe just implying through his figures) is that a higher sensitivity load or headphone (like an IEM) would be more apt to have a different sound in the amp's high and low gain modes than a lower sensitivity headphone, because the higher sensitivity headphone has the potential to reveal more audible noise in the high gain mode than a lower sensitivity headphone would.

I wonder if the lower sensitivity headphone might have a greater potential for clipping on the amp though, if you have to crank the volume up alot higher on the low gain mode to match the level in the higher gain mode. (?)

Assuming you're not hitting or approaching the clip point, then a lower sensitivity, harder-to-drive headphone that is also higher in impedance (which often goes hand in hand) might also have the additional benefit of a higher damping factor, which could potentially result in lower overall distortion in both of the gain modes than a higher sensitivity / lower impedance headphone would. While this may not be directly related to the OP's question, it might be something else to at least consider when trying to put together the right components for the best sound quality. And it is one of the reasons that I chose a lower sensitivity, higher impedance headphone from Beyerdynamic, rather than a louder headphone that was more in the 35 ohm impedance range for my own listening.

Another thing to consider though is that some people just prefer more volume! And may not really care or even notice how much noise or distortion that might add to their headphones or recordings. In which case, most of the above considerations would probably just be moot to them.

A couple articles on damping factors and bridging impedances related to the above that might be of interest...

 
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ADU

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To put the above more simply, if you're hearing alot of noise or distortion in your headphone/amp setup, the problem might not be in the amp, and either its S/N or THD+N. It might instead be either in the gain setting you're using on the amp, which could be too high for the headphones you're using. Or it could be in the headphones that you're using, which might simply be too sensitive and/or low in impedance for the levels of gain and impedance in your amp. Or it could be a combination of these things.

The solution in this case might not be a new amp. It might instead be a different gain setting. Or maybe a different pair of headphones, that's less sensitive and higher in impedance. Or both.

"Low sensitivity" and "high impedance" may not sound like desirable characteristics to have in a headphone. (And if volume is all that you're about, then that's probably very true!) But the upside to a headphone with these qualities is that it can frequently make an even relatively inexpensive amp with poorer S/N, and higher impedance sound pretty good... as long as you don't try to crank the volume way up. This is why alot of pros in the audio industry still prefer them over louder, lower impedance headphones, which can be much less forgiving in terms of SQ on their pro audio gear.
 
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Fraxo

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I wonder if the lower sensitivity headphone might have a greater potential for clipping on the amp though, if you have to crank the volume up alot higher on the low gain mode to match the level in the higher gain mode. (?)
Exactly! Thanks for taking the time to respond. That is actually more crucial for me than noise floor and mostly what I was referring to.

Does it affect clipping in any way? - I heard it audibly in a cheaper Dac Amp, but wanted to base it on science an experienced people because idk the technical cause.
Does it affect FR? Or is it completely transparent aside from the potential noise floor?

Then an important question is - Am I better off using Low Gain and turning up the volume to 90-100% or high gain at (let's just say) 40%? - which would introduce more problems and what might those be (audibly speaking)? Could it be measured or expected by specs? etc...

Also thanks for the links there! Much appreciated
 
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Fraxo

Fraxo

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"Low sensitivity" and "high impedance" may not sound like desirable characteristics to have in a headphone. (And if volume is all that you're about, then that's probably very true!) But the upside to a headphone with these qualities is that it can frequently make an even relatively inexpensive amp with poorer S/N, and higher impedance sound pretty good... as long as you don't try to crank the volume way up. This is why alot of pros in the audio industry still prefer them over louder, lower impedance headphones, which can be much less forgiving in terms of SQ on their pro audio gear.
If I gave you widely reviewed gear to make it more specific, could you tell me if there's a way to quantify the distortion/clipping/whatever wrong could happen?

Etymotic ER4XR\ER2XR with the Topping DX3 Pro+ as an example.
I understand from your great info that the headphones' sensitivity is a factor for potential issues, but what specifically is to be expected by specs?

Talking about sensitive IEMs, ik it's common to look for an amp that has an output impedance of a maximum of 1\8 than the IEM itself - that, I understand and can quantify easily. Unfortunately some of the other factors you've mention with combining Headphones with amps, H\L gain in different volume levels (cranked up to 90-100% on High vs 40% on Low) etc, are not so specific for me to be able to understand and asses specs - to expected performance and issues. I hope my struggle with this makes sense.
 

ADU

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I will try to address as many of the above as I can, Fraxo.

Something that might help though is to see how much actual power in watts or milliwatts you'd need from an amp to achieve a decent volume with the headphones you're using. My math was never very good, but I believe this can be calculated from a headphone's sensitivity in dB/mW using the following equation...

Power = 10^[(Volume - Sensitivity)/10]

The first quantity that we need for this equation is the volume that we want the headphone to achieve without clipping.

The reference volume used in studios for mastering audio content is typically around 85 dB SPL for a -20 dBFS test signal. The transient peaks in music can get louder than this though, and will sometimes approach 0 dBFS. Which means we probably need the amp to be able to handle at least another 20 dB on top of the 85 without clipping. Or around 105 dB in total, to achieve something close to reference levels. Audiophiles tend to like even a bit more headroom than that though, just to be on the safe side. So we'll add another 10 dB, to bring that up to 115 dB.

These are somewhat arbitrary values, which may be a little on the higher side. But they are in line with the levels used for THX certified gear. And 115 dB ensures that we have ample volume for quieter content. (Normal listening levels would tend to be lower than this though, probably peaking at only about 95 dB on the transient peaks.)

Next we need the sensitivity of the headphone in milliwatts.

When comparing a headphone's sensitivity (or efficiency), you need to be sure you're looking at the same spec. Because some manufacturers will use dB/mW for this, and others will use dB/V. (One can be derived from the other though, so that apples can be compared to apples... hopefully.) Etymotic lists the ER4XR as 98 dB/mW. And the ER2XR as 96 dB/mW. If those values are correct, then the ER4XR probably needs about 50 mW of power to achieve our target volume of 115 dB SPL. And the ER2XR needs about 80 mW...

Power = 10^[(115-98)/10] = 10^1.7 = 50.12 mW
Power = 10^[(115-96)/10] = 10^1.9 = 79.43 mW


The ER2XR needs a little more power than the ER4XR to achieve the same 115 dB reference volume because it is slightly less sensitive.

To see whether our amp can really deliver the goods though on the above, we also need the impedance of the headphones. Because the amp's power output varies depending on the load impedance. The headphone is the load in this case. And Etymotic shows the ER4XR as having a 45 ohm impedance. And the ER2XR at a mere 15 ohms.

The graphs that Doodski posted above show the Topping amp's maximum power before clipping (or maxing out of the volume control?) for two different load impedances: 300 ohms and 32 ohms. Since our headphones are both at the lower end of the impedance range, the 32 ohm graph is the closest. And with a 32 ohm load, the maximum power on the Topping is 119 mW in its Low Gain mode, and 1522 mW in the High Gain mode! With the 45 ohm load on the ER4XR, the max power will be slightly less than these values. And with the 15 ohm load on the ER2XR, it should be more.

Assuming the above figures are all more or less correct, this suggests to me that the Low Gain mode on the amp should have sufficient power to drive either earphone to reference volumes without clipping. The only way we can tell that though is by looking at both the headphone's sensitivity, and also its impedance. So both come into play here.

The High Gain mode on the Topping appears to have appreciably more power than necessary to drive either earphone to ref volume. Which might seem like a good thing at first. To use that mode at a comfortable listening level though on the headphones in question, you'd need to drop the volume down quite a bit, which could have the potential for making noise more audible.
 
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Jimbob54

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@Fraxo reading between the lines on some of your posts it sounds like you have either noticed a problem or think you might have in one of your set ups.

I would suggest unless the IEMs you were using were very sensitive (like some of the Campfire Audio line, something silly like 120dB/mw) you shouldnt hear any amp related noise from these modern hi performance units from topping SMSL etc with 115dB SINAD and good 50mv performance.

The Etymotics, especially the "2" range are pretty damned insensitive and might be hard for less competent amps and portables if you like high volumes and especially if you use EQ and use them in single ended 3.5mm connection. But should not be a struggle for competent desktop equipment like the DX3 Pro plus as ADU demonstrates above. You definitely shouldnt be hearing the amp's noise floor hiss on the Ety's , even in high gain. If you are, I think something is wrong in your set up (low input signal perhaps?)
 

ADU

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Understanding the best ways of combining different audio components is something that takes time, and practice, and also listening. I still have alot to learn on this as well. And don't really consider myself an expert on the subject. Volts, watts, amps and ohms can still confuse the heck out of me. But I try to take something new away from each piece of gear that I try.

In the above setup, for example, it appears that the ER2XR may actually have a bit more headroom in the Topping DX3 Pro+'s Low Gain mode than the ER4XR. Which seems a bit counter-intuitive if you're looking just at the sensitivity on the two headphones. The ER4XR appears like it might have less headroom though because of its higher impedance.

Based on the above stats, I don't think the High Gain mode on the Topping would be advantageous with either earphone. The ER4XR might possibly be the better candidate of the two to try in that mode though, because of its higher impedance. And at some point you just have to let your ears decide which is the best way to go on something like this.

If there's enough gain to comfortably drive the headphones to sufficient volumes in the Low Gain mode though, without distorting, then there's probably no point in using them with the High Gain mode. Because they'll probably play a bit nicer in the Lower Gain mode.
 
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ADU

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Based on the above graphs and specs from Amir's review, the High Gain mode on the Topping DX3 Pro+ seems like it would work better with a lower sensitivity, higher impedance headphone like my 250-ohm Beyerdynamic DT-770.

The sensitivity on the 250-ohm DT-770 is about 94.5 dB/mW. Which means it needs about 112 mW of power to reach a reference volume of 115 dB SPL...

Power = 10^[(115-94.5)/10] = 10^2.05 = 112.21 mW

Since it is higher in impedance than both of the Etymotic IEMs, we have to use the max power values for a 300-ohm load to get an idea which of the Topping's two gain modes might be best suited to delivering that much power. In this case, the High Gain mode seems like it might be a better option, because it can deliver up to 257 mW of power with a high impedance 300 ohm load. Whereas the Low Gain mode is only capable of about 13 mW with a 300 ohm load.

The max power values would be slightly higher with the DT-770's 250-ohm load. So this is not entirely conclusive. But it would probably be a better candidate for the High Gain mode than either Etymotic IEM, because of both its lower sensitivity and higher impedance.
 
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Fraxo

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Understanding the best ways of combining different audio components is something that takes time, and practice, and also listening. I still have alot to learn on this as well. And don't really consider myself an expert on the subject. Volts, watts, amps and ohms can still confuse the heck out of me. But I try to take something new away from each piece of gear that I try.

@ADU Your responses are fantastic. It can get a bit confusing. Everytime I get some time off I try to dive into this and improve my technical understanding...

Something that might help though is to see how much actual power in watts or milliwatts you'd need from an amp to achieve a decent volume with the headphones you're using. My math was never very good, but I believe this can be calculated from a headphone's sensitivity in dB/mW using the following equation...

Power = 10^[(Volume - Sensitivity)/10]

The first quantity that we need for this equation is the volume that we want the headphone to achieve without clipping.

The reference volume used in studios for mastering audio content is typically around 85 dB SPL for a -20 dBFS test signal. The transient peaks in music can get louder than this though, and will sometimes approach 0 dBFS. Which means we probably need the amp to be able to handle at least another 20 dB on top of the 85 without clipping. Or around 105 dB in total, to achieve something close to reference levels. Audiophiles tend to like even a bit more headroom than that though, just to be on the safe side. So we'll add another 10 dB, to bring that up to 115 dB.

These are somewhat arbitrary values, which may be a little on the higher side. But they are in line with the levels used for THX certified gear. And 115 dB ensures that we have ample volume for quieter content. (Normal listening levels would tend to be lower than this though, probably peaking at only about 95 dB on the transient peaks.)

Next we need the sensitivity of the headphone in milliwatts.

When comparing a headphone's sensitivity (or efficiency), you need to be sure you're looking at the same spec. Because some manufacturers will use dB/mW for this, and others will use dB/V. (One can be derived from the other though, so that apples can be compared to apples... hopefully.) Etymotic lists the ER4XR as 98 dB/mW. And the ER2XR as 96 dB/mW. If those values are correct, then the ER4XR probably needs about 50 mW of power to achieve our target volume of 115 dB SPL. And the ER2XR needs about 80 mW...

Power = 10^[(115-98)/10] = 10^1.7 = 50.12 mW
Power = 10^[(115-96)/10] = 10^1.9 = 79.43 mW


The ER2XR needs a little more power than the ER4XR to achieve the same 115 dB reference volume because it is slightly less sensitive.

To see whether our amp can really deliver the goods though on the above, we also need the impedance of the headphones. Because the amp's power output varies depending on the load impedance. The headphone is the load in this case. And Etymotic shows the ER4XR as having a 45 ohm impedance. And the ER2XR at a mere 15 ohms.

The graphs that Doodski posted above show the Topping amp's maximum power before clipping (or maxing out of the volume control?) for two different load impedances: 300 ohms and 32 ohms. Since our headphones are both at the lower end of the impedance range, the 32 ohm graph is the closest. And with a 32 ohm load, the maximum power on the Topping is 119 mW in its Low Gain mode, and 1522 mW in the High Gain mode! With the 45 ohm load on the ER4XR, the max power will be slightly less than these values. And with the 15 ohm load on the ER2XR, it should be more.

Assuming the above figures are all more or less correct, this suggests to me that the Low Gain mode on the amp should have sufficient power to drive either earphone to reference volumes without clipping. The only way we can tell that though is by looking at both the headphone's sensitivity, and also its impedance. So both come into play here.

The High Gain mode on the Topping appears to have appreciably more power than necessary to drive either earphone to ref volume. Which might seem like a good thing at first. To use that mode at a comfortable listening level though on the headphones in question, you'd need to drop the volume down quite a bit, which could have the potential for making noise more audible.

Trying to wrap my head around this now :)
 
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solderdude

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Exactly! Thanks for taking the time to respond. That is actually more crucial for me than noise floor and mostly what I was referring to.

Does it affect clipping in any way? - I heard it audibly in a cheaper Dac Amp, but wanted to base it on science an experienced people because idk the technical cause.

In high gain with 0dBFS volume setting you can clip the amp section at full volume (and is load dependent). In low gain you can not.

Does it affect FR? Or is it completely transparent aside from the potential noise floor?

The FR is limited by the digital file. In theory it is possible that an amp section in lower gain (so more overall feedback, technically speaking) can have a wider frequency range.
For this device, however, the frequency response is determined by the DAC section so there will be no difference in FR extension outside of the audible range.


Then an important question is - Am I better off using Low Gain and turning up the volume to 90-100% or high gain at (let's just say) 40%? -

Technically, yes as you will have a technically lower noise floor and have a larger volume control range.
Practically, you may be limited to a maximum SPL in low gain mode.
Sonically, it won't matter as long as you don't hear a noise floor when nothing is playing.

which would introduce more problems and what might those be (audibly speaking)? Could it be measured or expected by specs? etc...

It is measured by Amir
 
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Fraxo

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In high gain with 0dBFS volume setting you can clip the amp section at full volume (and is load dependent). In low gain you can not.
Oh wow, so completely safe in low gain mode... Must've been a hell of a stress test to reach clipping.
The FR is limited by the digital file. In theory it is possible that an amp section in lower gain (so more overall feedback, technically speaking) can have a wider frequency range.
For this device, however, the frequency response is determined by the DAC section so there will be no difference in FR extension outside of the audible range.
Do you mind elaborating about what makes lower gain on an AMP cause more feedback and a wider frequency range? Sounds interesting, but I'm not even sure what this feedback or wider Frequency range means practically in the context of AMPs.
Technically, yes as you will have a technically lower noise floor and have a larger volume control range.
Practically, you may be limited to a maximum SPL in low gain mode.
Sonically, it won't matter as long as you don't hear a noise floor when nothing is playing.
When you say "Practically, you may be limited to a maximum SPL in low gain mode." do you mean it in the obvious sense, of maxing out the volume range and being limited in case I need to go to 100%, or did I miss something?
 
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