SONCOZ SGD1 Audio DAC Review

[somebodyelse]

@Labjr isn't asking for a DAC like this one though. The request is for a multichannel DAC including DSP for use as an active crossover.

 

[Labjr]

You are right, similar to the ADI-2 DAC I mentioned above, MINIDSP can do that. But MINIDSP is not a regular DAC like this one. Similar to ADI-2 Pro/DAC, Its main selling point is not just plain D-A conversion, but also abundant DSP features. While Soncoz is just a regular DAC product. It doesn't have power to do any DSP computations. See my comments above, quoted again below.

And asking for Ben for help is meaningless. He can't go against the basic fundamental knowledge on DSP. Period.

Why this forum is flooded with so many stupid comments. If you don't understand fundamental knowledge, just stop trolling and keep learning.

Nobody said it was a regular DAC. That's why you should mind your own business. Nobody was asking you anything.

 

[PPP]

@Labjr isn't asking for a DAC like this one though. The request is for a multichannel DAC including DSP for use as an active crossover.

I see. I thought he was asking if it's pssible to do it in this machine. I was answering the wrong question. My apology.
But I answered him in my first post that certain products and computer software programs serve his purpose very well. So technically I was not wrong.
Lastly, even though I praised Ben's work all the time, since I became a forum member, I guess he won't be able to do that because DSP is not his main R&D area at all. It's a different speciality . So my conclusion still holds.

 

[nspp]

Hi Ben,

I wonder if you've considered making a DSP crossover that may be suitable for something like the Linkwitz LX521.4 speakers? I think the currently available solutions aren't transparent.

You can do crossover/crossfeed without going to the DSP path some headphone amplifier have it already (Euphoria, Meier Audio, SPL phonitor,....).
Another suggested path is to do it on the player before feeding the DAC when decoding.
Some pure balanced architecture also will prevent to mix both channel inside some DAC.
With Speaker you should find the best placement to avoid such mechanism or go for room treatment and active correction even muti channel (High Mid-Bass) amplification. (to me this is not the target for a consumer dac)

 

[somebodyelse]

@nspp this has nothing to do with headphone crossfeed. The LX521.4 is a 4-way speaker that requires an active crossover before the 8 channels of power amp. It's certainly not mass market, but it is consumer, and currently the choices are quite limited, particularly if you want a well measuring DAC stage and don't want to put it together from bare boards. Whether Ben thinks the market is big enough to be worth addressing is another matter entirely.

 

[nspp]

@nspp this has nothing to do with headphone crossfeed. The LX521.4 is a 4-way speaker that requires an active crossover...

Sorry for my misinterpretation.

 

[CrimeInPartner]

Just an update since some people were interested in the ship times. It's been about 2 weeks now since I got the notification that the shipping label was printed. The tracking information says that nothing has actually happened in that time. So either YooYeeToo likes to take his time and sit on his packages before shipping them, or he doesn't actually have any stock when you order something and you have to wait until he orders and receives something from @Ben1987. In any case, he's got another month to go before I can reach out to Amazon officially about it, so I will continue to wait until then. I'll let people know when I get the actual updated from DHL and the expected shipping time from China to Dallas, TX for those on the fence about purchasing or from this particular seller.

One last update. I contacted YooYeeToo and he was quick to respond after reaching out to DHL. It seems International flights have largely been ground to a halt due to COVID-19 and it was sitting and waiting. DHL said it should be getting on a plane soon which seems to line up with the fact that I am now seeing updates on the tracking number, with an estimated delivery of next Monday, so we're looking at a week.

Anyway, in case it wasn't clear to any of you, be patient if ordering from an international retailer as the supply chains are all jacked up right now which is going to add even more lead time than you might have already expected. Many thanks also to YooYeeToo for quickly responding to my message and getting me some answers!

 

[Kyosato]

I'm pretty sure that the difference you have from other DAC is probably due to the output stage as RT6863 is not known (exept for the khadas tone board) and hope it does not include any fancy feature to make the sound pleasant.
(Where to get a datasheet of this RT6863 )
Have you made any ABX test in XLR with another sabre DAC using 2L bench same flavor (24bit352.8kHz and DSD256) ?

Yes with oppo 205 recently. SGD1 is pleasing, dynamic, very good. I listened my DSD files with the very first designs of native DSD playback from cirrus logic, ESS, Texas, AK, most of the time balanced output. Sometime in RCA. Sometime some RCA outputs were better than the XLR and it turned out that it wasn't true balanced output stage. I can say I know my files. DSD playback and specifically DSD is rendering differently here than any Sabre (9016, 9018, 9028, 9038 and their variants)-based design I tried. I like it, but it's very close in the rendering from PCM sometimes. And the 2L test is a classic in that perspective. I read Ben statements with pleasure, but there is still this unusual feeling. Let's give to the SGD1 it's uniqueness of rendering. Going beyond this, the amount of details that is displayed is exceptional.

Again I spent some time listening focusing on the DSD files...the rendering is much different that the oppo, and the matrix I tested also, but some time ago for the matrix.

By the way Ben I came across another bug tonight : From off to On, i used directy a Raspberry runeaudio as a source connected to USB-C. PCM played fine, but no DSD could play... I thought "not again", and I thought maybe you pushed another OTA upgrade for the SGD1 that changed something...Spent some time runing around...switched from RUneaudio to volumio, same problem. Then I came closer to switch from USB-C to USB-B and plug my laptop as source to test with foobar...and it worked suddenly. Even if I was connected to USB-C to the raspberry, the moment I switched to USB-B on the knob, the USB-B light activated and the DSD file was playing from the raspberry....and I could hear the sound from the DAC, even if the Raspberry was connected to the USB-C input. I changed again to USB-C and then both DSD and PCM could play.

There is a inconsitency in input selection and maybe the XMOS input is rebooted everytime you switch from USB-C to USB-B and vice versa...

But Ben, Direct DSD was lagging big time after that, when played from a raspberry Pi 3B (work no problem on other DAC with XMOS U208 entry, who are native DSD from end to end). No problems with DoP mode, until DSD256...it should be the contrary, DoP put a load on the CPU to chunk the DSD signal in PCM bytearrays. And theoretically the XMOS entry, since it can output in I2S (on other things), has capabily to convert, reschedule and check signals...and convert to PCM...

Can you please confirm how the XMOS entry, after your upgrade, handle the DSD, and how it is conveyed to the Sabre twin DACs? Having said that there absolutely NO DSD to PCM conversion whatsoever anywhere in the DAC, I won't open and pin-check the xmos board, I trust Ben. What is exactly the CPLD (or other) rationale for splitting the signal to the two chips in Mono mode? The design has to be well thought and engineered to handle DSD stream from one end to the others when using two chips (it took Audio GD some time and iterations...).

I have pleasure listening to this DAC nonetheless.

Thank you for this really helpful review.

Regarding the DSD playback: from my knowledge lowering the hardware volume on ESS dacs makes DSD playback impossible.
I lowered the volume on my Tone Board (using alsamixer) and when I play DSD
- as DoP there is no sound + bonus the DAC is blocked, it won't play PCM also until a reboot.
- as direct-DSD it makes an annoying fisss sound, If you try that, lower the volume to the min on the amp or better yet use some cheap headphones
This could be a test that the DSD streams you send to the dac are not converted to PCM - i think...

I hope after a few more days when your sound impressions will be clearer you will come back here to share them with us.

This is exactly why I don't recommend putting a Volume knob where there is no amplifier, and that I favor steps volume approach (I have an Audio GD head Amp after all) I hope that this volume circuitry is not inducing a PCM processing along the way. Ben will comment how and where volume is managed. For DSD the Sabre DAC chips have ways to handle digital gain just before the I/V conversion if I remember well. But Volume has to be handled only if you need it, in amplifiers only in my view. Fortunately the SGD1 in his latest firmware memorizes the volume setting.

Fundamental knowledge on DSP.

The only chip in this product that supports general purposed processing is an XMOS XU208, which is underpowered for most DSP calculations. The upper limitation of that chip is to do some simple volume calculations.

Even much more powerful FPGA chips in ADI-2 Pro/DAC has quite a lot of DSP limitations. RME has to shut down DSP features in various cases (high res music, or DSD music).

XMOS has capabilities to convert signal (DSD to PCM normally...), and the product uses a dual mono 9038Q2M design wich requires to distribute perfectly the bits to each chip with perfect timing...I don't see how this is possible without a FGPA/CPLD/programable DSP somewhere, so there ought to be a logic device capable of calculation. Ben, how do you do it?

 

[TomB]

Does the Khadas Toneboard, the Soncoz SGD1 and the Sondoz LA-QXD1 all use the same output stage op amps?

 

[Ben1987]

Does the Khadas Toneboard, the Soncoz SGD1 and the Sondoz LA-QXD1 all use the same output stage op amps?

Yes.

 

[Veri]

the product uses a dual mono 9038Q2M design wich requires to distribute perfectly the bits to each chip with perfect timing...I don't see how this is possible without a FGPA/CPLD/programable DSP somewhere

This simple operation just requires local clocking that's it. An FPGA is sometimes used for advanced reclocking purposes, which can then sometimes cause problems when it loses "lock" on signal from your smart TV or apple TV/chromecast..
Sometimes the simple solution is the best.

 

[nspp]

Does the Khadas Toneboard, the Soncoz SGD1 and the Sondoz LA-QXD1 all use the same output stage op amps?

Yes.

@Ben1984 Do you have any datasheet link for the RT6863 ? (or can you confirm that this is this one and using one by channel.)

 

[Ben1987]

Kyosato, thank you for testing SGD1. So great.

Can you please confirm how the XMOS entry, after your upgrade, handle the DSD, and how it is conveyed to the Sabre twin DACs?

XMOS itself is equipped with DSD bit stream transmission.DSD includes clock and left and right channel data, DAC has mono output form.It is easy to transfer the DSD stream directly to the DAC.
According to my experience(Personal view) , CPLD or FPGA is used to stabilize the clock and reshape unstable data signals to reduce output jitter. XMOS is able to accomplish the above functions to SGD1, XMOS USB solution is flexible and convenient enough.

What is exactly the CPLD (or other) rationale for splitting the signal to the two chips in Mono mode?

The new generation of XMOS is enough to do this, and I believe this is a trend, Maybe.

By the way Ben I came across another bug tonight : From off to On, i used directy a Raspberry runeaudio as a source connected to USB-C. PCM played fine, but no DSD could play... I thought "not again", and I thought maybe you pushed another OTA upgrade for the SGD1 that changed something...Spent some time runing around...switched from RUneaudio to volumio, same problem

We are trying to reproduce the problem and carefully examine the software logic to fix it as soon as possible.

 

[Ben1987]

@Ben1984 Do you have any datasheet link for the RT6863 ? (or can you confirm that this is this one and using one by channel.)

It seems to be the same RT6863S

 

[nspp]

It seems to be the same RT6863S

Yes Ben exactly the same datasheet except the TM
This a a very good/balanced choice for output power and low noise.

 

[Kyosato]

Thanks Ben, I will try to reproduce the chain of action for the the small Bug.

I looked into the Datasheet. Indeed, it's an interesting choice price-wise. Not my first choice for balanced output, but there is definitely a coherence with the "95% of performance for 40% of the price" approach. It's in line with the choice of 9038Q2M. I would have liked to try a dual 9028 for example. The 9038pro requires other things to get the maximum of it.
In quantity the 9038Q2M is cheaper than the 9028 which has still the 8 channels I reckon.

Nowaday, buying a product only is not enough, you also buy quick responsiveness, empathy and goodwill toward the comunity, business ethics, and cleverness in tech choices. I can see big potential in Soncoz, and the SGD1 is already a very good product, and Ben and his team already offers what I stated just before. Even if the product is young, It works well and is very relaxing to listen.

In future SGD2 version, I'll recommend improved network capabilities (WIFI 5G at least, or better, Gigabit ethernet), a small display for files, coding, bitrates, and filters. I'll add also the possibility to hard select the output format for the digital out.

What I really like the oppo for, and it's the only DAC that could do it. is the ability to play multichannel DSD, or Multichannel PCM coming from Blu-ray Audio. And it does it very cleverly : it can either demodulate and convert through the multichannel output (RCA), or (and that is what's very interesting) output it through regular HDMI (or Coax, but at the price of a 96/24 PCM which is good already but not quite bit-perfect). The regular HDMI output is a killer feature. It allows anyone to benefit from multichannel Hi-end recordings using just a regular AV amplifier. Most of the amplifier now (Onkyo, Marantz, ...) have pure audio modes, and can natively process multichannel DSD. The result is FANTASTIC, for a fraction of the price required for a "audiophile" setup.

given the boldness of the Soncoz team, they have the potential to make a very good product in the future. And during that time, I think I'll keep the SGD1 as it is aleady a very good DAC. But now everyone understand why digital output is what I was looking for => to output to my amplifier when I want the audience to benefit from the sound. The next stage would be to add a regular (not I2S, which is impractical when you use DSD) HDMI 1.4b or better HDMI 2.0, for audio only (tips use a simple 1080p black image also in the signal). You can then very easily output PCM, DSD64, DSD128, and multichannel DSD64 (which is very often compressed in lossless DST special coding). Ok I'll stop my letter to Santa. So Why not keep the Oppo? Beccause the app for remote control sucks when it comes to play files, and you can't output DSD to the HDMI when it comes from the USB DAC input (requires some workaround on the 205, it worked plug and play with the 105D). My dream would be to have a DAC which I could drive from a USB entry (with raspberry), and send multichannel DSD or Multichannel PCM recordings, and it can output in directstream to HDMI, or XLR output when I play stéréo only files.

 

[Padi]

Hi
I got the SGD1, very nice workmanship, congratulations! I also find the sound very good, nice analog.
I don't have a Windows computer, I can only do updates via WiFi, directly to the SGD1. Is this enough? Or do I have to have a Windows PC for this to be correct?
I'm streaming through Roon "Nucleus" straight to the DAC.
Music via Bluetooth no longer works after the update. Is there music from the USB channel on the Bluetooth channel? I don't know what to do now. The 7 filters also make no difference.
Can someone help me?

Sorry for my english!

Thanks and regards
Padi

 

[pomstazlesa]

In future SGD2 version, I'll recommend improved network capabilities (WIFI 5G at least, or better, Gigabit ethernet),.

why? its used for firmware updates only. even older 802.11n operating at 2.4Ghz is way more than enough. same would go for ethernet, 100Mbps and even 10Mbps would be enough. im far more concerned about these potential attack vectors, that will eventually have security vulnerabilities, sooner or later. having a device always connected to internet, especially when not needed, is never a good idea. id be rather by much more interested in offline fw upgrade, ideally through usb or other, physical means, as bluetooth falls into similar potential attack vector as the networking capability.

 

[nspp]

In future SGD2 version, I'll recommend improved network capabilities (WIFI 5G at least, or better, Gigabit ethernet), a small display for files, coding, bitrates, and filters. I'll add also the possibility to hard select the output format for the digital out.
... So Why not keep the Oppo? Beccause the app for remote control sucks when it comes to play files, and you can't output DSD to the HDMI when it comes from the USB DAC input (requires some workaround on the 205, it worked plug and play with the 105D). My dream would be to have a DAC which I could drive from a USB entry (with raspberry), and send multichannel DSD or Multichannel PCM recordings, and it can output in directstream to HDMI, or XLR output when I play stéréo only files.

What you ask is more a streamer + DAC ++++++ than a single DAC.
And this is why i still keep my old teaked oppo BDP 105 not so bad sound with XLR, not so bad Multimedia,..

id be rather by much more interested in offline fw upgrade, ideally through usb or other, physical means, as bluetooth falls into similar potential attack vector as the networking capability.

I'm also in favor of plain firmware update through OTA or better with a serial console with dedicated usb, or using a tftp process.... This will give you the ability to switch back when new firmware is not suitable for your current usage. (if you can archive and/or download firmware from Soncoz website)

 

[Ben1987]

I will try to reproduce the chain of action for the the small Bug.

System firmware BUG fix tips
--------------------
System software VER: 1.0.1.6
CHANGE:
1.Fix audio reset to max volume bug, audio init sequence bug.