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SONCOZ SGD1 Audio DAC Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
CrimeInPartner
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- Joined
- Apr 20, 2019
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- 41
Just an update since some people were interested in the ship times. It's been about 2 weeks now since I got the notification that the shipping label was printed. The tracking information says that nothing has actually happened in that time. So either YooYeeToo likes to take his time and sit on his packages before shipping them, or he doesn't actually have any stock when you order something and you have to wait until he orders and receives something from @Ben1987. In any case, he's got another month to go before I can reach out to Amazon officially about it, so I will continue to wait until then. I'll let people know when I get the actual updated from DHL and the expected shipping time from China to Dallas, TX for those on the fence about purchasing or from this particular seller.
Hi everyone, long week of work. Weekend at last.
Very glad of the post from Ben, can't wait to try, I am downloading the drivers right now.
As far as PCM sources are concerned I like the sound quality very much. I will go into details after I tested with my collection of DSD files wich I know very much. Since the update allows me to test my DSD files now, I will try it.
Hi,
Here come the news. After spending a few hours updating, testing and listening to a lot of music yesterday night.
First of all : bravo to Ben an his team, there are huge progress made in just a week and now the product is up to international standards for specs and features.
I did exactly what Ben instructed us to do, did download the firmware update for the USB entry, the new USB driver (which is really nice). It's not clear what to do with the pre-existing XMOS divers that are still available on the website. Do you have to install XMOS drivers and then the other new thesycon driver on top of it? It's not clear and Ben can maybe clarify a bit. Anyway on the second attempt, it worked and I have the small Soncoz icon in my taskbar (note: I have Win10 with all the recent updates, latest version of Foobar, and Latest version of the SACD decoder pack that you can find out there). Then I did the OTA procedure again (I did it before) and it's not clear what updates were made or what bugs have been corrected. @Ben : you should be more precise in the Log of the firmware updates in the future, but it's really nothing.
Let's focus on what works now and what remains to be done :
Huge progress, you can now play DSD files from Linux and Foobard without having to configure any software DSD to PCM conversion beforehand.
But I would like to compare exactly what did Ben in his lab and what could be reproduced by customers. For example, installing the new TheSycon USB drivers also does install new "soncoz" ASIO drivers that are available in Foobar when you select the outputs. But what to do with the previous XMOS drivers? They are still available in the ASIO menu, they don't seem to work anymore. Do we have to de-install them? leave them like this?
Why I ask that ? it's because I didn't manage to play any files in Direct native DSD in ASIO mode. I had to use the DoP mode, which is fine also because the USB entry can handle 700kHz and more files, so you can theoretically play DSD256 in DoP, and it works. In real life you'd better stick to DSD128 (DSD raw data enbedded in 352 kHz PCM bytearrays), because Dop for DSD256 put a huge load on your CPU, and sometime you can experience glitches, especially in ASIO mode. So it seems Ben succeed in playing native DSD that is detected by the TheSycon Panel in his pdf file. But I didn't managed to do that. no matter how I tried. I would like Ben to explain precisely his Foobar Settings and version of plugins. One important precision : I don't know if the USB-B and USB-C have different capabilities, or if they are the same. All my Foobar listening session was made using USB-B entry.
The sound was very good, lively, natural, good spatialization, but lacked the instant Wow effect of some of my DSD files upon the start. The listening is very natural and easygoing, with a lot of details and richness in the trebles, and mids, the bass were agile and not clumsy at all. The best experience was DoP using the "DSD>ASIO SONCOZ" forced DoP setting in Foobar. My test setup didn't changed for years now : Audio-GD NFB-1AMP full balanced, which is very natural and not colored, and my Audeze LCD-3 which as character, full bass and rich mids, delicacy and superior articularity in the trebles overall. Even if it is a bit behind other electrostatic headphones like STAX when it comes to spatialization and soundstage, I prefer the balanced setup and compromise with richness and dynamics of the LCD3 over Electrostatics. I am very familiar with this setup and Obviously I use the balanced XLR outputs of the SGD1. I think the DAC needs some warmup, like the amps, (even if all are solid state), and I wonder if some break-in is required. The performance of the DAC is very good from the start (don't forget to put your volume to the max on the DAC...is should stay that way all the time !!) and on par ( and if not superior) with several other DAC based on the Sabre set of chips.
The listening was very gratifiying and I was happy that at last I can play my files, but the experience out of the listening of my test set of files is somewhat new and a bit unexpected when it comes to DSD. Some notes : I don't know what secret sauce is made internally, and if the pure unconverted DSD stream is really conveyed to the pair of 9038Q2M without any conversion.... The DSD files are most of the time mastered using at least 1dB less Gain, and when you play them natively with the Sabre chips, which I know very well, it has no effect at all (after all, playing DSD is just low pass filter. But when a PCM conversion is made along the way, no matter how good the conversion is, there are some inconsistencies in the volume. The output of the 9038 are in current (I) not voltage (U), so a conversion is needed to the be output to the XLR. I hope that the SGD1 design really uses the true balanced capabilities of the pair of 9038Q2M, (and not a cheap simetrizer from the RCA output, but since both output works with the same volume setting and can't be shut down separately...I hope not. I hope Ben will confirm), it's far better to built the RCA output from the XLR balanced output (and not the contrary...).
I chose the SGD1 because of the Bluetooth capability AND the digital output. Very nice choice from Ben to do that. I really like the capability to output the sound on the coax out to my Home cinema Amplifier, when I want to make an ambiance or if I want some multiroom playing. There are some limitations in my tests : when I play DSD, I don't know if DSD64 is output to the coax out (theoretically it can, in DoP). My amp digital coax in seems to be limited to 96khz somewhat. So I need to do more tests.
The blutooth is very smooth and handy, synch with no effort from my Iphone and Android devices.
Going to Linux based playing (from a raspberry, volumio latest version and Rune Audio latest version) : The Firmware upgrade and the firmware flash of the XMOS entry seemed to solve somewhat the problem. You can play DSD natively and with DoP directly to the DAC. I used the USB-C entry this time (does the USB-C has bigger bandwith and/or capacity than USB-B?). Very good, smooth, but same statement than the windows-based session...there is this strange easygoing and relaxed feeling listening to my DSD files. Very natural, transparent. I like it a lot. But, the test with comparison between DoP and "Native" yielded the same inconsistencies. Ben : Can you confirm that no matter the mode, a DSD stream is natively conveyed all the way to the DAC without any internal PCM conversion in the process?? What exactly was updated with the firmware of the XMOS entry? I hope there is no internal conversion to PCM before the 9038Q2M, but the listening of some files I know very well was strange in that perspective (very good but different that what I am used to listen from other native DSD dacs). Maybe i was influenced by the fact that the volume always come at the minimum setting and that you have to use the remote control to put it to 0dB (maximum). By the way I would like an upgrade with a true "DAC mode" with no volume setting at all. I only want my DAC to output at the nominal gain, and I want to manage the volume at my amp level. If the DAC has no head amp, what is the volume for? The volume knob is not that good by the way, you have to turn it forever to reach the maximum setting. It seems to miss a click every two clicks.
So overall : Extremely good sound quality, if you use only PCM sources (even with some DSD files), this is by far the best option out there at this price point. If you are a (very) picky user like myself you may hesitate a bit. DSD playing on the SONCOZ has definitely seen notable progress, but I don't want to discover that the firmware update of the XMOS USB or the SGD1 firmware entry was just to convert DSD to PCM...and even if the sound quality is definitely there, and the listening very good, It hasn't totally cleared my doubts about it. I did enjoy listening to my files very much but the implementation and listening result is definitely different that of the Oppo 205, or some other 9038/9028 Dacs (matrix, Audio-GD, FiiO,...). Ben will confirm it.
What I would like to do is : being able to see exactly what is processed internally by the DAC (PCM, 16/24/32 bits, sampling, DSD...), I want a DAC mode with no volume at all in the process to retain the maximum quality, I want to be able to select the outputs (Digital on/off, XLR always on, and RCA on/off). And Ben said...it might be coming in a V2...so...do I keep the V1, or I wait for the V2 ? Depends when the V2 would come, and depends what Ben would say about the questions and points earlier in this long post, especially in the native DSD processing. But my special high end case is not the majority out there, and while 90% of the audiophiles would be very very happy with the SGD1.
Waiting from the feedbacks from Ben to the questions, and especially on the DSD to PCM process that I suspect from my listening, knowing very well the 9038Q2M and my files. I may be wrong though
I'll do some more listening, and I am leaning on keeping it, except if the V2 comes in 6 months (best price/performance ratio out there).
But bottom lines : very happy by the work from Soncoz. Thank you very much.
Here come the news. After spending a few hours updating, testing and listening to a lot of music yesterday night.
First of all : bravo to Ben an his team, there are huge progress made in just a week and now the product is up to international standards for specs and features.
I did exactly what Ben instructed us to do, did download the firmware update for the USB entry, the new USB driver (which is really nice). It's not clear what to do with the pre-existing XMOS divers that are still available on the website. Do you have to install XMOS drivers and then the other new thesycon driver on top of it? It's not clear and Ben can maybe clarify a bit. Anyway on the second attempt, it worked and I have the small Soncoz icon in my taskbar (note: I have Win10 with all the recent updates, latest version of Foobar, and Latest version of the SACD decoder pack that you can find out there). Then I did the OTA procedure again (I did it before) and it's not clear what updates were made or what bugs have been corrected. @Ben : you should be more precise in the Log of the firmware updates in the future, but it's really nothing.
Let's focus on what works now and what remains to be done :
Huge progress, you can now play DSD files from Linux and Foobard without having to configure any software DSD to PCM conversion beforehand.
But I would like to compare exactly what did Ben in his lab and what could be reproduced by customers. For example, installing the new TheSycon USB drivers also does install new "soncoz" ASIO drivers that are available in Foobar when you select the outputs. But what to do with the previous XMOS drivers? They are still available in the ASIO menu, they don't seem to work anymore. Do we have to de-install them? leave them like this?
Why I ask that ? it's because I didn't manage to play any files in Direct native DSD in ASIO mode. I had to use the DoP mode, which is fine also because the USB entry can handle 700kHz and more files, so you can theoretically play DSD256 in DoP, and it works. In real life you'd better stick to DSD128 (DSD raw data enbedded in 352 kHz PCM bytearrays), because Dop for DSD256 put a huge load on your CPU, and sometime you can experience glitches, especially in ASIO mode. So it seems Ben succeed in playing native DSD that is detected by the TheSycon Panel in his pdf file. But I didn't managed to do that. no matter how I tried. I would like Ben to explain precisely his Foobar Settings and version of plugins. One important precision : I don't know if the USB-B and USB-C have different capabilities, or if they are the same. All my Foobar listening session was made using USB-B entry.
The sound was very good, lively, natural, good spatialization, but lacked the instant Wow effect of some of my DSD files upon the start. The listening is very natural and easygoing, with a lot of details and richness in the trebles, and mids, the bass were agile and not clumsy at all. The best experience was DoP using the "DSD>ASIO SONCOZ" forced DoP setting in Foobar. My test setup didn't changed for years now : Audio-GD NFB-1AMP full balanced, which is very natural and not colored, and my Audeze LCD-3 which as character, full bass and rich mids, delicacy and superior articularity in the trebles overall. Even if it is a bit behind other electrostatic headphones like STAX when it comes to spatialization and soundstage, I prefer the balanced setup and compromise with richness and dynamics of the LCD3 over Electrostatics. I am very familiar with this setup and Obviously I use the balanced XLR outputs of the SGD1. I think the DAC needs some warmup, like the amps, (even if all are solid state), and I wonder if some break-in is required. The performance of the DAC is very good from the start (don't forget to put your volume to the max on the DAC...is should stay that way all the time !!) and on par ( and if not superior) with several other DAC based on the Sabre set of chips.
The listening was very gratifiying and I was happy that at last I can play my files, but the experience out of the listening of my test set of files is somewhat new and a bit unexpected when it comes to DSD. Some notes : I don't know what secret sauce is made internally, and if the pure unconverted DSD stream is really conveyed to the pair of 9038Q2M without any conversion.... The DSD files are most of the time mastered using at least 1dB less Gain, and when you play them natively with the Sabre chips, which I know very well, it has no effect at all (after all, playing DSD is just low pass filter. But when a PCM conversion is made along the way, no matter how good the conversion is, there are some inconsistencies in the volume. The output of the 9038 are in current (I) not voltage (U), so a conversion is needed to the be output to the XLR. I hope that the SGD1 design really uses the true balanced capabilities of the pair of 9038Q2M, (and not a cheap simetrizer from the RCA output, but since both output works with the same volume setting and can't be shut down separately...I hope not. I hope Ben will confirm), it's far better to built the RCA output from the XLR balanced output (and not the contrary...).
I chose the SGD1 because of the Bluetooth capability AND the digital output. Very nice choice from Ben to do that. I really like the capability to output the sound on the coax out to my Home cinema Amplifier, when I want to make an ambiance or if I want some multiroom playing. There are some limitations in my tests : when I play DSD, I don't know if DSD64 is output to the coax out (theoretically it can, in DoP). My amp digital coax in seems to be limited to 96khz somewhat. So I need to do more tests.
The blutooth is very smooth and handy, synch with no effort from my Iphone and Android devices.
Going to Linux based playing (from a raspberry, volumio latest version and Rune Audio latest version) : The Firmware upgrade and the firmware flash of the XMOS entry seemed to solve somewhat the problem. You can play DSD natively and with DoP directly to the DAC. I used the USB-C entry this time (does the USB-C has bigger bandwith and/or capacity than USB-B?). Very good, smooth, but same statement than the windows-based session...there is this strange easygoing and relaxed feeling listening to my DSD files. Very natural, transparent. I like it a lot. But, the test with comparison between DoP and "Native" yielded the same inconsistencies. Ben : Can you confirm that no matter the mode, a DSD stream is natively conveyed all the way to the DAC without any internal PCM conversion in the process?? What exactly was updated with the firmware of the XMOS entry? I hope there is no internal conversion to PCM before the 9038Q2M, but the listening of some files I know very well was strange in that perspective (very good but different that what I am used to listen from other native DSD dacs). Maybe i was influenced by the fact that the volume always come at the minimum setting and that you have to use the remote control to put it to 0dB (maximum). By the way I would like an upgrade with a true "DAC mode" with no volume setting at all. I only want my DAC to output at the nominal gain, and I want to manage the volume at my amp level. If the DAC has no head amp, what is the volume for? The volume knob is not that good by the way, you have to turn it forever to reach the maximum setting. It seems to miss a click every two clicks.
So overall : Extremely good sound quality, if you use only PCM sources (even with some DSD files), this is by far the best option out there at this price point. If you are a (very) picky user like myself you may hesitate a bit. DSD playing on the SONCOZ has definitely seen notable progress, but I don't want to discover that the firmware update of the XMOS USB or the SGD1 firmware entry was just to convert DSD to PCM...and even if the sound quality is definitely there, and the listening very good, It hasn't totally cleared my doubts about it. I did enjoy listening to my files very much but the implementation and listening result is definitely different that of the Oppo 205, or some other 9038/9028 Dacs (matrix, Audio-GD, FiiO,...). Ben will confirm it.
What I would like to do is : being able to see exactly what is processed internally by the DAC (PCM, 16/24/32 bits, sampling, DSD...), I want a DAC mode with no volume at all in the process to retain the maximum quality, I want to be able to select the outputs (Digital on/off, XLR always on, and RCA on/off). And Ben said...it might be coming in a V2...so...do I keep the V1, or I wait for the V2 ? Depends when the V2 would come, and depends what Ben would say about the questions and points earlier in this long post, especially in the native DSD processing. But my special high end case is not the majority out there, and while 90% of the audiophiles would be very very happy with the SGD1.
Waiting from the feedbacks from Ben to the questions, and especially on the DSD to PCM process that I suspect from my listening, knowing very well the 9038Q2M and my files. I may be wrong though
I'll do some more listening, and I am leaning on keeping it, except if the V2 comes in 6 months (best price/performance ratio out there).
But bottom lines : very happy by the work from Soncoz. Thank you very much.
Thanks Kyosato for your feedback..
Have you tested DSD listening trying to change the filters ?
On my current sabre DACs, i do have low pass filters for DSD 47/50/60/70 KHz ,The PCM filters does not apply and on my display i currently see witch filter is selected, decoding mode.
Ben, I do not see on the manual anything about specific DSD filter and where i can identify current decoding options (DSD/PCM 44.1x /PCM 48x ) ??
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Hi Kyosato: Thank you for your patience in testing and listening,You've done a lot of hard work in SGD1,thumbs up.
XMOS driver is only used to identify old PID/VID SGD1 and the new TheSycon custom driver is updated with PID/VID. After upgrading XMOS flash, XMOSdriver can be uninstalled.
We'll do that in more detail in the future
Unstill them, the upgraded SGD1 does not need the XMOS driver.
You can find foobar in the attachment which I am using.
USB-B and USB-C are the same and their functions are the same, I designed them to make it easier to switch input audio sources when two USB devices are connected to SGD1 at the same time. There is no need for the user to go to SGD1's back panel to unplug the USB cable, some debugging work is very practical.
Yes, the SGD1 design really uses the true balanced capabilities of the pair of 2*9038Q2M. LA-QXD1 is also really a balanced output.
USB-B and USB-C both of them are USB2.0 .
Yes, a DSD stream is natively conveyed all the way to the DAC.
Adjust XMOS firmware support to high specification DSD to DSD512 and high specification PCM768kHZ.
We will continue to optimize the production process of the knob and the software algorithm of the trigger by mistake. Thank you for your valuable advice.
SGD2 (V2) is scheduled to launch next year.
As for the confusion points of different sound quality, my personal thinking is as follows: SGD1‘s I/V and LPF circuits are not the same as the four operational amplifiers. Meanwhile, I noticed that the products using the same operational amplifiers(RT6863S) as SGD1 LPF circuits seem to be relatively few, which may be due to the unique sound quality and belong to different styles. On the other hand, different op amp power supply, filter capacitor, coupling capacitor and resistance are the reasons for different sound quality.The sound quality is subjective and it's hard to judge what's best.It is best for every audiophiles to find his own style.
Thank you again for your patience in testing and listening, you did a great job.
This is a 47 or 50 K low pass filter as shown on the diagram. Does that mean tat the ES38Q2M have only one standard filter the other one only available for the ES9038 pro version...
The functional diagram on sabre documentation is probably wrong or just a cut/paste.
Many thanks for being clear and share a lot about your design ! huge :thumbsup:
Does it mean that it is possible to have a console mode for SGD1 through one of the usb ? (I have other devices with serial or internal pin to do firmware update and control or check feature is it the case ?
No. Both of them just for USB audio.
The specification does specify only this DSD filtering mode, which is our default mode. More details may not have been disclosed, which needs to be confirmed with ESS. For now, the filtering method of disclosure works.
On DSD you use IIR Filter on 44.1 for value 00 you have cutoff to 47K by default. On register 7 pos [2:1] for 9028/9038 you can set the IIR_Bandwidth see line 700..
and for sure not documented for es9038q2m..
Thank you Ben you did well too. Ok this my misunderstanding, you use the foo_dsd_asio of the ASIO proxy instead of the direct SONCOZ asio driver...that is surprising, why do you use a proxy instead of the direct Soncoz asio usb interface? I'll try that.
Concerning the sound quality it is very very good again. And it seems that you did your own design at the output stage after the 9038Q2M, instead of the reference design of ESS for the I/V conversion. But the questions of the DSD filter can be another lead also.
My surprise came from the small inconsistencies that could occur in the playback volume from a "native" DSD playback, and DoP setting for the same files, that led me to suspect a conversion somewhere. It is not the case that is a good thing. The natural rendering of your design is again very good and refreshing.
Concerning the DSD filters, we see that the cut starts at 44,1khz or so, at 50khz there is -3dB or so...this make sense, in market segmentation, to reserve advanced dsd filters to the flagship 9038pro. But when you use DSD128 files or DSD256, the dynamic of the files is beyond that. The noise shaping techniques of the DSD put away the noise well beyond the audible frequencies....after 80kHz khz or so, so cutting before is the basic of DSD processing (again you are supposed to feed the raw DSD signal to a class D amplifier and use a low pass filter, that's all).
But this morning I spent all the time listening music from the blutooth entry and using the coax out to my multiroom amplifier, as I was working in the kitchen. and That's a very good feature also.
I'll test this more!
I'm pretty sure that the difference you have from other DAC is probably due to the output stage as RT6863 is not known (exept for the khadas tone board) and hope it does not include any fancy feature to make the sound pleasant.
(Where to get a datasheet of this RT6863 )
Have you made any ABX test in XLR with another sabre DAC using 2L bench same flavor (24bit352.8kHz and DSD256) ?
Thank you for this really helpful review.
Regarding the DSD playback: from my knowledge lowering the hardware volume on ESS dacs makes DSD playback impossible.
I lowered the volume on my Tone Board (using alsamixer) and when I play DSD
- as DoP there is no sound + bonus the DAC is blocked, it won't play PCM also until a reboot.
- as direct-DSD it makes an annoying fisss sound, If you try that, lower the volume to the min on the amp or better yet use some cheap headphones
This could be a test that the DSD streams you send to the dac are not converted to PCM - i think...
I hope after a few more days when your sound impressions will be clearer you will come back here to share them with us.
This is just not possible. There's no chip powerful enough to DSP. Consider music player software that has that feature. Or, buy an ADI-2 DAC/Pro from RME and you'll be happy forever.
Fundamental knowledge on DSP.
The only chip in this product that supports general purposed processing is an XMOS XU208, which is underpowered for most DSP calculations. The upper limitation of that chip is to do some simple volume calculations.
Even much more powerful FPGA &DSP chips in ADI-2 Pro/DAC has quite a lot of DSP limitations. RME has to shut down DSP features in various cases (high res music, or DSD music).
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You are right, similar to the ADI-2 DAC I mentioned above, MINIDSP can do that. But MINIDSP is not a regular DAC like this one. Similar to ADI-2 Pro/DAC, Its main selling point is not just plain D-A conversion, but also abundant DSP features. While Soncoz is just a regular DAC product. It doesn't have power to do any DSP computations. See my comments above, quoted again below.
And asking for Ben for help is meaningless. He can't go against the basic fundamental knowledge on DSP. Period.
Why this forum is flooded with so many stupid comments. If you don't understand fundamental knowledge, just stop trolling and keep learning.
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