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So pre-amp mode only applies to the L and R channels? (2020 Denon/Marantz AVRs) Looking for some buying advice...

Nihil

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#1
Hey all,

Last time I bought an AVR HDMI didn't exist, and only the highest-end AVR had component video I/O :) I'm in the process of building an entirely new room with new equipment. Speakers arrangement is 7.2.4 Atmos. All speakers are my own design and build. The LCR are going to be fully active, driven by Hypex Fusion (ncore) amps with DSP crossovers. All surround speakers will be passive two-way designs.

I'm looking for either an AVR with 11.1 pre-outs or a pre/pro with 11.1 output. Budget is under $2k, preferably even less. On the AVR front the latest Denon/Marantz AVRs seem to fit the bill, but if I read Amir's review of the X4700 correctly, the new pre-amp mode only turns off the L and R channels? There's no way to turn off ALL amp channels? Or even just the L, C, and R? That sucks since the center channel carries most of the duties during movies, which means accepting the higher distortion at high output levels. The Anthem AVM60 looks like it fits my needs, but it breaks the budget by $1k. Something like the NuForce AVP-18 would be great, but it's limited to 7.1 instead of 11.1. I don't need room correction or a bunch of legacy inputs, so it's really just a quality pre-amp and Dolby Atmos decoder that I'm looking for. Is the latest Denon line my only real option?

Thanks!
 
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Nihil

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Thinking about this a little more... if I keep the output voltage on a Denon AVR below 1.4v, then I can use the variable gain in the Hypex Fusion to still drive the amp to full output... So maybe the latest Denon line will work fine for me. Thoughts?
 

Dimifoot

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#3
If you are judging by SINAD measurements alone, you need to know the measurements for all channels before you decide.

Unless you want to use it as a 2-channel device only. Like buying a 4K tv to watch black and white movies.
 

peng

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#4
I'm looking for either an AVR with 11.1 pre-outs or a pre/pro with 11.1 output. Budget is under $2k, preferably even less. On the AVR front the latest Denon/Marantz AVRs seem to fit the bill, but if I read Amir's review of the X4700 correctly, the new pre-amp mode only turns off the L and R channels? There's no way to turn off ALL amp channels? Or even just the L, C, and R?
The X4700H has a pre-amp mode that disconnect all 9 channels of the internal power amps. If you only want to disconnect the FL and FR channels then you can use the amp assign feature. Otherwise, if you use the pre-amp mode then it will disconnect all channels.
 
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The X4700H has a pre-amp mode that disconnect all 9 channels of the internal power amps. If you only want to disconnect the FL and FR channels then you can use the amp assign feature. Otherwise, if you use the pre-amp mode then it will disconnect all channels.
Does this apply to the 3700 too?
 
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Nihil

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Thanks Peng! That's exactly what I need. I have enough external amplifiers that I can disconnect all the internal AVR amps. Sounds like the new Denons should be good for my needs. I wonder if I can make this one last 15+ years like my last one :D
 

peng

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The X4700H has a pre-amp mode that disconnect all 9 channels of the internal power amps. If you only want to disconnect the FL and FR channels then you can use the amp assign feature. Otherwise, if you use the pre-amp mode then it will disconnect all channels.
Hi Peng! Does this feature exist in the older denon avr 4308 too?
 

peng

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#12
Ok. Thanks! Do you know the pre out voltage on this model? I want to get a PA amplifier like a Yamaha or a Crown amp to power my passive subwoofers. Not sure if the pre outs can drive the PA amps.
If you are referring to the 4308, it should be about 4 Vrms maximum.
 
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#13
If you are referring to the 4308, it should be about 4 Vrms maximum.
Thanks Peng! I hooked up a yamaha P3500 pa amp to my denon 4308 pre outs but there was no output from the yamaha.Are the pre outs on the denon 4308 always on or do they have to be enabled?
 

peng

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Thanks Peng! I hooked up a yamaha P3500 pa amp to my denon 4308 pre outs but there was no output from the yamaha.Are the pre outs on the denon 4308 always on or do they have to be enabled?
Not only the 4308, Denon AVRs pre outs are always on. You should double check the connections and settings of the P3500. It has XLR inputs only right? Are you using the RCA to XLR adapters/cables?

The 4308 is probably the most powerful (or the second most) AVRs ever measured by S&V, at very low distortions. Unless you really need that 3 dB more headroom the P3500 offered, I would just use the Denon's internal amps.

I did a search on S&V measurements but being so old they might have removed it already. Good thing I saved a copy of the image. It had been posted with links to the original review multiple times before. I bet you would have hard time finding one that can top it, including separate power amps? That's almost 94 dB SINAD at 160 W into 8 ohms and gets better all the way down to what looks like 5 W! And note that this is not DAC/preout numbers, its the output measured at the speaker terminals, I don't recall seeing such high SINAD/THD+N ever measured on ASR's bench except may be those Hypex based ones.

Edit: Did find the review on the 5308 and the measurements were still there, it looks very interesting that the two have almost identical THD+N% vs Output up to about 165 W, after that the 5308 did better, as expected.. It's not what you are asking but I thought since you own the 4308 you may feel good seeing such good looking measurements.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-5308ci-av-receiver-measurements



1605361652185.png


1605362390530.png
 
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#15
Not only the 4308, Denon AVRs pre outs are always on. You should double check the connections and settings of the P3500. It has XLR inputs only right? Are you using the RCA to XLR adapters/cables?

The 4308 is probably the most powerful (or the second most) AVRs ever measured by S&V, at very low distortions. Unless you really need that 3 dB more headroom the P3500 offered, I would just use the Denon's internal amps.

I did a search on S&V measurements but being so old they might have removed it already. Good thing I saved a copy of the image. It had been posted with links to the original review multiple times before. I bet you would have hard time finding one that can top it, including separate power amps? That's almost 94 dB SINAD at 160 W into 8 ohms and gets better all the way down to what looks like 5 W! And note that this is not DAC/preout numbers, its the output measured at the speaker terminals, I don't recall seeing such high SINAD/THD+N ever measured on ASR's bench except may be those Hypex based ones.

Edit: Did find the review on the 5308 and the measurements were still there, it looks very interesting that the two have almost identical THD+N% vs Output up to about 165 W, after that the 5308 did better, as expected.. It's not what you are asking but I thought since you own the 4308 you may feel good seeing such good looking measurements.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-5308ci-av-receiver-measurements



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View attachment 93504
Thanks a lot Peng! Yes the Yamaha has only xlr inputs. I bought two xlr connectors and wired them to to a rca.There was totally no sound coming out from the Yamaha.Btw,the yamaha was bought second hand could be faulty.I've since returned the yamaha to the seller.
Abt using the Denon's internal amplifiers,are you referring to the Assignable channels? Someone told me I could use the unused Assignable chanels to power passive subwoofers. Is that true?
Also,I found that the 4308 has input level controls that can be be set higher than the default 0 db. Is it ok to increase these input level controls? B'cos I normally stream music from you tube and sometimes the sound seem quite soft.The denon's volume has to be ard -10db in order to get good sound output.
Much appreciate your help with these issues.
 

kevin1969

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#16
The X4700H has a pre-amp mode that disconnect all 9 channels of the internal power amps. If you only want to disconnect the FL and FR channels then you can use the amp assign feature. Otherwise, if you use the pre-amp mode then it will disconnect all channels.
Can you only assign the amp to the front L/R channels and keep it disconnected from the Zone2 pre-outs?

I thought preamp only mode was all or nothing so I'm a little confused about this amp assign feature.
 

peng

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#17
Can you only assign the amp to the front L/R channels and keep it disconnected from the Zone2 pre-outs?

I thought preamp only mode was all or nothing so I'm a little confused about this amp assign feature.
Not sure what you mean, the FL/FR amps are obviously "assigned" to the FL/FR channels by default, unless you use the amp assign feature to assign them to other channels and in that case the FL/FR channel will have to be powered by an external amp via the pre outs for FL/FR.

Pre amp mode is different, when selected, the inputs for all internal amps will be disconnected from the pre outs.
 

kevin1969

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#18
Not sure what you mean, the FL/FR amps are obviously "assigned" to the FL/FR channels by default, unless you use the amp assign feature to assign them to other channels and in that case the FL/FR channel will have to be powered by an external amp via the pre outs for FL/FR.

Pre amp mode is different, when selected, the inputs for all internal amps will be disconnected from the pre outs.
Is it easy to enable/disable preamp mode without going into the settings? I have a secondary listening area that it would be nice to just use the whole amp as a preamp without any complex changes.
 

peng

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#19
Is it easy to enable/disable preamp mode without going into the settings? I have a secondary listening area that it would be nice to just use the whole amp as a preamp without any complex changes.
I don't know of an easy way, but that is not to say there isn't one. If you are quick with your finger, it should take less than 30 seconds to make the changes you need.
 

Steve Dallas

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#20
Can you only assign the amp to the front L/R channels and keep it disconnected from the Zone2 pre-outs?

I thought preamp only mode was all or nothing so I'm a little confused about this amp assign feature.
Pretty sure the preamps outs are always active according to their assignments, but I have not tested this as it does not apply to my use cases.

Is it easy to enable/disable preamp mode without going into the settings? I have a secondary listening area that it would be nice to just use the whole amp as a preamp without any complex changes.
The 2020 Denon receivers have 2 presets you can assign. I show how to do this in the later pages of the 4700 review thread. I use preamp only mode for stereo listening, as I use an external amp for the front pair, and I have this set as preset 1. For all video sources, I disconnect the front pair amps, but use the center and surround amps. This is preset 2. I use my universal remote to set the preset for each activity.
 
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