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[bloodshoteyed]

Fuel cells might be a quite good transitory solution as they have quite some advantages on the points I mentioned above, their only real problem is their lower theoretical efficiency compared to a battery drive.
Currently Toyota and Hyundai offer here in Europe each a model you can normally buy.

the main problem are hydrogen production, transport and storage
i remember BMW was doing quite a lot of testing a few years back but dropped it and went full EV

 

[thewas]

the main problem are hydrogen production, transport and storage
i remember BMW was doing quite a lot of testing a few years back but dropped it and went full EV

The transport, storage and distribution of hydrogen is easier though than of electricity as existing structures can be (modified) used while there are no large scale storage, charging and transport solutions for electricity yet.
That BMW dropped it recently like all other German manufacturers is just an unfortunate result of the German politics and lobby (especially VW) which decided that EV is the only way to go, something that imho will have a large drawbacks in the long run.

 

[Jim Matthews]

The transport, storage and distribution of hydrogen is easier though than of electricity as existing structures can be (modified) used while there are no large scale storage, charging and transport solutions for electricity yet.

The problem with Hydrogen is in its generation. If it's derived from steam reforming, CO2 emissions are just moved to the processing point instead of tailpipes.

Hydrogen production by electrolysis (in conjunction with desalination on a large scale) holds some promise as solar power costs fall. No CO2 is released during electrolysis, but there are substantial losses compared to the current direct powered model.

Creating Hydrogen as a power store is also (effectively) a battery at grid scale and larger scale is where Hydrogen makes the most sense.

Given most of us drive less than 30 miles a day, Hydrogen power storage is an expensive solution to the problem - electricity is already broadly available in North America.

https://www.bts.gov/statistical-pro...sehold-travel-survey-daily-travel-quick-facts

FYI - I'm leasing a KIA Niro EV. We have consolidated our driving (as a family if four) into this, the World's fastest toaster. We piled on 13,000 miles in one year - all within 45 miles of home.

Is my greatest car, ever? Not even close.
It has been the most reliable, but I *was* loyal to SAAB and Audi, so even a Lada would seem more dependable.

 

[Blumlein 88]

The problem with Hydrogen is in its generation. If it's derived from steam reforming, CO2 emissions are just moved to the processing point instead of tailpipes.

Hydrogen production by electrolysis (in conjunction with desalination on a large scale) holds some promise as solar power costs fall. No CO2 is released during electrolysis, but there are substantial losses compared to the current direct powered model.

Creating Hydrogen as a power store is also (effectively) a battery at grid scale and larger scale is where Hydrogen makes the most sense.

Given most of us drive less than 30 miles a day, Hydrogen power storage is an expensive solution to the problem - electricity is already broadly available in North America.

https://www.bts.gov/statistical-pro...sehold-travel-survey-daily-travel-quick-facts

FYI - I'm leasing a KIA Niro EV. We have consolidated our driving (as a family if four) into this, the World's fastest toaster. We piled on 13,000 miles in one year - all within 45 miles of home.

Is my greatest car, ever? Not even close.
It has been the most reliable, but I *was* loyal to SAAB and Audi, so even a Lada would seem more dependable.

Good to hear. I was considering one of the Ioniq's. I'd like to drive one when they are out see how I feel about them vs the Tesla.

 

[thewas]

Hydrogen production by electrolysis (in conjunction with desalination on a large scale) holds some promise as solar power costs fall. No CO2 is released during electrolysis, but there are substantial losses compared to the current direct powered model.

Yes, the lower efficiency is its biggest drawback as I had written in #900 but on the other hand it doesn't have the several other drawbacks of current batteries. Also the good thing is that clean electric energy (solar, wind) can be used at hours when the demand is low, so like a big storage.

Given most of us drive less than 30 miles a day, Hydrogen power storage is an expensive solution to the problem - electricity is already broadly available in North America.

As I had written for small range / city use EV is probably the best compromise. On other hand we must keep in mind that if all vehicles would be EV even in a country like here in Germany which has one of the biggest percentages of clean electric energy, a significant part would come from non clean and non CO2 neutral sources and it will take some decades till this changes.

 

[Jim Matthews]

Good to hear. I was considering one of the Ioniq's. I'd like to drive one when they are out see how I feel about them vs the Tesla.

Due to the rapid improvement in EV quality and falling prices I recommend leasing, no longer than 3 years.

KIA offers generous incentives for leasing the Niro EV, but you must force dealers to honor the National terms. I had mine shipped 800 miles as dealers in the Northeast attempted to pocket my money.

My out of pocket total will be just over $26,000 if I buy out the lease.

https://www.edmunds.com/kia/niro-ev/2020/deals/

If it was me, and I was buying outright it would be the F150 Lightning.

 

[Jim Matthews]

On other hand we must keep in mind that if all vehicles would be EV even in a country like here in Germany which has one of the biggest percentages of clean electric energy, a significant part would come from non clean and non CO2 neutral sources and it will take some decades till this changes.

Hold the phone.

You're advocating for Hydrogen as a clean way to electrify vehicles and against EVs as they use coal derived electricity, sometimes?

The entire point of electric vehicles as they exist today is their efficiency in energy consumption. That has immediate effects in local air quality - right here, right now.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Due to the rapid improvement in EV quality and falling prices I recommend leasing, no longer than 3 years.

KIA offers generous incentives for leasing the Niro EV, but you must force dealers to honor the National terms. I had mine shipped 800 miles as dealers in the Northeast attempted to pocket my money.

My out of pocket total will be just over $26,000 if I buy out the lease.

https://www.edmunds.com/kia/niro-ev/2020/deals/

If it was me, and I was buying outright it would be the F150 Lightning.

The F150 Lightning looks interesting. I was very interested in the first Tesla truck until they managed to create the ugliest damn thing I couldn't imagine. And just like gull wing doors are a bad idea (and Elon didn't listen) so are stainless paneled vehicles. Just ask anyone with a stainless kitchen appliance or a DeLorean ( which also has some unfortunate styling cues like the Cybertruck).

Never liked leasing vehicles. I'd look at its possible cost of ownership, but leasing has to really be better to get me to consider it.

 

[thewas]

Hold the phone.

You're advocating for Hydrogen as a clean way to electrify vehicles and against EVs as they use coal derived electricity, sometimes?

The entire point of electric vehicles as they exist today is their efficiency in energy consumption. That has immediate effects in local air quality - right here, right now.

As said hydrogen can be produced when the demand in electricity is low, but you can't tell people when they drive and charge their cars.

Also CO2 is one very important aspect, but the production and recycling of current lithium based batteries another.

Meaning that everything is a compromise and possibly and intelligent mix of the technologies might be a better one than just going one way.

 

[Jim Matthews]

Never liked leasing vehicles. I'd look at its possible cost of ownership, but leasing has to really be better to get me to consider it.

*Derailing the thread, here*

The main reason I leased a KIA is that the incentive reduced the capitalized cost (what I pay in the lease) and applies to the final buyout. With KMFUSA you can (or could when I signed) make one lease payment and buyout the lease. That's $13,000 off a $40,000 sticker price.

The second reason is the accelering improvement of EVs as something you might enjoy driving. My EV has all the charm of a dishwasher.

I can only hope the next generation is either more comfortable (mine rides like a Suzuki Jimny) or is more engaging (the electric steering rack was designed by Nintendo).

 

[Jim Matthews]

Also CO2 is one very important aspect, but the production and recycling of current lithium based batteries another.

How do you say "Shifting the Goalposts" in German?

 

[thewas]

How do you say "Shifting the Goalposts" in German?

How do you say "ignoring uncomfortable truths" in English?

 

[thewas]

The main reason I leased a KIA is that the incentive reduced the capitalized cost (what I pay in the lease) and applies to the final buyout. With KMFUSA you can (or could when I signed) make one lease payment and buyout the lease. That's 13,000 off a $40,000 sticker price.

The second reason is the accelering improvement of EVs as something you might enjoy driving. My EV has all the charm of a dishwasher.

Ok, everything is clear now. By the way the head of R&D of the whole Hyundai/KIA automotive group Albert Biermann also finds currently a full concentration to only EV as nonsense.

 

[Jim Matthews]

How do you say "ignoring uncomfortable truths" in English?

Have fun storming the castle.

 

[thewas]

Have fun storming the castle.

Have fun in your sandcastle.

 

[Blumlein 88]

*Derailing the thread, here*

The main reason I leased a KIA is that the incentive reduced the capitalized cost (what I pay in the lease) and applies to the final buyout. With KMFUSA you can (or could when I signed) make one lease payment and buyout the lease. That's 13,000 off a $40,000 sticker price.

The second reason is the accelering improvement of EVs as something you might enjoy driving. My EV has all the charm of a dishwasher.

I can only hope the next generation is either more comfortable (mine rides like a Suzuki Jimny) or is more engaging (the electric steering rack was designed by Nintendo).

If the lease offer is that good for the Ioniq ok. Have to wait until those are out. They should be more comfortable and engaging.

 

[JJB70]

The hydrogen economy has been just around the corner all of my life and is the perennial coming thing. This time however it has a much stronger prospect simply because we need to decarbonize. However I think hydrogen is probably more suited to the hard to decarbonize applications with batteries looking good for automotive use. Hydrogen does not necessarily mean the fuel will be hydrogen however, it might be but it may be hydrogen carriers such as ammonia. The real priority is to uncouple electricity generation from emissions as once there is plentiful clean electricity then using electrolysers on a large scale becomes viable.

 

[Jim Matthews]

If the lease offer is that good for the Ioniq ok. Have to wait until those are out. They should be more comfortable and engaging.

I haven't seen one, yet. To get a feel for the platform, the Hyundai Kona EV and KIA Niro EV are essentially the same.

Hyundai/KIA finance run incentives on the prior year's models.

I'm doubtful the newest Ioniq 5/ EV6 will get the same support at first.

****

You'll want a level 2 charger, regardless. I used an existing sub panel in my garage. Figure another $1000, including installation.

I haven't been to a gas station in 8 months.

 

[voodooless]

FYI - I'm leasing a KIA Niro EV. We have consolidated our driving (as a family if four) into this, the World's fastest toaster. We piled on 13,000 miles in one year - all within 45 miles of home.

Is my greatest car, ever? Not even close.
It has been the most reliable, but I *was* loyal to SAAB and Audi, so even a Lada would seem more dependable.

View attachment 147112

I have one of those as well (dark grey, 64 kW battery). Was one of the first to get one in the Netherlands. Put on 65000 km the first year, I’m now almost at 120000 km. It’s quite a nice comfortable and well driving car, quick enough and quite efficient. I regularly drive 400 km/day, which in the summertime you can do on a single charge with a little luck. Reliabilityy is excellent, though I’ve had to call in once for a dead 12v battery . Battery wear seems quite minimal as well.

I haven't seen one, yet. To get a feel for the platform, the Hyundai Kona EV and KIA Niro EV are essentially the same.

Not quite though. My colleague has the Kona EV. The Kona is quite a bit smaller, and it does have a different battery pack. His was replaced and he still can't charge it to 100% due to safety concerns

 

[JJB70]

The biggest challenge of all is bringing all countries and people along. Poor people in poor countries didn't create this problem and in many cases are (perfectly understandably) more concerned with access to potable water, healthcare and education. It's easy for people in the developed world to signal virtue and harangue poor countries but those countries have every right to develop economically and provide a better future for their people. So I think the developed world needs to accept the responsibility and obligation to help the developing world.