Should I clean new vinyl?

[sergeauckland]

I came across this article some time ago.

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Apart from this, new records put in a paper sleeve always seem to be very dusty, so wet cleaning then a new plastic inner seems sensible.

S.

 

[sergeauckland]

My big mystery is why the Lenco cleaning system leaves the surface extra noisy. Permanently.

The explanation I read way back when, was that the Lenco system isn't a cleaning system, it's a wet playing system. The idea is that the applicator stirs the dirt up into a wet suspension such that the stylus then just plays through the thin 'mud' to the clean groove. Unfortunately, when the mud dries, it cakes the grooves and on any subsequent dry play, is very noisy, and needs wet playing to keep the mud thin. Equally, the stylus must be cleaned and dried after playing wet as the mud will dry there too.

Far better is the wet cleaning and subsequent removal of the 'mud' in a vacuum Record Cleaning Machine like the Moth I use, Nitty Gritty or similar. I'm not totally convinced by the Keith Monks idea of using a piece of string to soak up the wet mud, but anything that removes the mud rather than leaving it to dry in the grooves has to be better.

S.

 

[SIY]

The explanation I read way back when, was that the Lenco system isn't a cleaning system, it's a wet playing system. The idea is that the applicator stirs the dirt up into a wet suspension such that the stylus then just plays through the thin 'mud' to the clean groove. Unfortunately, when the mud dries, it cakes the grooves and on any subsequent dry play, is very noisy, and needs wet playing to keep the mud thin. Equally, the stylus must be cleaned and dried after playing wet as the mud will dry there too.

Far better is the wet cleaning and subsequent removal of the 'mud' in a vacuum Record Cleaning Machine like the Moth I use, Nitty Gritty or similar. I'm not totally convinced by the Keith Monks idea of using a piece of string to soak up the wet mud, but anything that removes the mud rather than leaving it to dry in the grooves has to be better.

S.

Yes, I was unclear and sloppy in my terminology. The mystery remains, though- if the Lenco just stirs up mud which cakes on drying, why do records played with that system remain noisy even after a deep cleaning?

 

[sergeauckland]

Yes, I was unclear and sloppy in my terminology. The mystery remains, though- if the Lenco just stirs up mud which cakes on drying, why do records played with that system remain noisy even after a deep cleaning?

Do they after wet cleaning and vacuum drying? If they do then I have no explanation, as I would have thought that a good scrub with a water/IPA mixture then vacuum drying would have removed the dried mud, thus removing the noise.

S.

 

[Thomas_A]

Yes, I was unclear and sloppy in my terminology. The mystery remains, though- if the Lenco just stirs up mud which cakes on drying, why do records played with that system remain noisy even after a deep cleaning?

What do you mean with deep cleaning?

Wet play works to reduce friction (aquaplaning) and reduce noise. My best guess is that a record which has been left to dry with dust particles in the solution will cause the dust to (i) stick much harder to the surface and (ii) cause particles will shrink and get much denser, causing a much "static-like" noise. Another wet play will both lift some dirt and cause some reswelling of those particles. Together with reduced friction with wet play you have less noise, even if there are dust stuck in the groove.

A deep cleaning of such records would probably require several steps e.g.
- remove loose dust "completely" (that can fall back and stick)
- pre-wash with warm water/detergent/brush and not letting the record dry (just rinse in final step)
- ultrasonic cleaning

 

[SIY]

What do you mean with deep cleaning?

Wet play works to reduce friction (aquaplaning) and reduce noise. My best guess is that a record which has been left to dry with dust particles in the solution will cause the dust to (i) stick much harder to the surface and (ii) cause particles will shrink and get much denser, causing a much "static-like" noise. Another wet play will both lift some dirt and cause some reswelling of those particles. Together with reduced friction with wet play you have less noise, even if there are dust stuck in the groove.

A deep cleaning of such records would probably require several steps e.g.
- remove loose dust "completely" (that can fall back and stick)
- pre-wash with warm water/detergent/brush and not letting the record dry (just rinse in final step)
- ultrasonic cleaning

I’ve tried commercial record cleaning machines with both their cleaners and my own brew (some very cool surfactants), and ultrasonics.

 

[SIY]

Do they after wet cleaning and vacuum drying?
S.

Yes, sadly.

 

[MCH]

Hello,

I got curious about this and did a couple of tests in case you find them interesting.

Background:
I have no idea about vinyl formulation, but all the formulas I have seen online in patents etc. include some form of wax/plasticizer. The serious literature I could find is very old, and things might have changed and newer ingredients available, however I don’t think this is an active development field since many years ago and I still expect to find some form of plasticizer there.
Even if those are not used as mold release, as stated above by @SIY , it does not mean they are not going to migrate to the surface and leach, if they have enough mobility.

This test does not intent to be exhaustive let alone quantitative, I would need a lot more time and work to do that. You can put it in the “anecdotal evidence” drawer, but at least it will provide some real data to stir the discussion.

I have chosen two records to test. I received both new and factory sealed. I never cleaned them. I never touched nor used them. I chose one record made in Europe and another made in US, as in my experience (not in vinyl formulation but in general in the chemical industry), ingredients tend to change in between regions due to tradition, availability, REACH, etc, etc.

I received the European record a bit over one year ago, it was published in 2022 so I guess it was made sometime in 2021 or 2022, enough for plasticizers to migrate in to the surface but still recent enough to call it “new”. It is one of these cheapo euro compilations that you find often at the FNAC. I believe many of those are self produced.

The US record I received it earlier in 2022 and is a classic record (A Jolly Christmas from Frank Sinatra) that could have been made any time, but is a recent edition, what you would get if you buy this album new nowadays, I don’t think it is older than a few years.

What I did was to put a bit of n-heptane on the surface of the record (on the inner groove so that it does not spread too much through the grooves and because Xmas is approaching and I might fancy to listen to old blue eyes haha) and recollect it to a vial. I repeated this a few times over a surface of ca. 5 cm2 (not measured, might be a bit more or less from one record to the other).

When I did this, I noticed that the solvent left a very slight mark (at the edges of the solvent drop) on the European vinyl, what tells me there is soluble stuff on the surface. There is also a very slight mark left on the US record but it is much more difficult to see, barely noticeable.

I chose Heptane because it wont damage the record too much and most importantly because it might be a decent enough solvent for apolar waxes and plastizicers that might migrate to the surface. I preferrend not to use lighter solvents like hexanes or pentane to avoid as much as possible that they penetrate the substrate. Please note that the solubility of those waxes (for instance carnauba and others that I found in the vinyl patent literature) in heptane is not very high, but considering the small amounts were are aiming at here, it should be good enough. If there are other polar additives there, or high molecular weight waxes or other polymers, heptane is not going to extract them. As heptane will not penetrate much in the PVC, we can assume that whatever it extracts is on the surface, either because it migrated there or because it was already there from the beginning.

Then I put a couple of drops of the extract on Zinc Selenide IR window and obtain the FT-IR:

The EU record extract contains a fair amount of material. The spectrum matches that of low molecular weight Polyethylene (wax).

The ZnSe window does not allow to see the signal at 700 cm-1 typical for these substances.
The match vs a reference library is not perfect (most specially the signal at higest frequency) but is pretty decent:

The US pressing extract has much less material. I struggled to get a decent spectrum. As you can see, there spectrum has more noise because the intensity of the absorption bands is really weak. What it shows is also some kind of polyethylene wax, but most probably different to the EU record. The fact that there is less in the extract is either that it is a wax with higher molecular weight that has less mobility that migrates less and/or is less soluble (most probably) or it contains less to start with.

again compared against a library:

yup, some sort of polyethylene wax.
I was expecting to find some carnauba or similar ester stuff, but definitely there is no ester there.

Well, as conclusions, what I observed here is yes, new vinyl might contain some wax on the surface that in some cases you can wash with some soap if you want to. If washing this is beneficial or the opposite, I cannot tell.
In other cases, like the US record tested here, i doubt that you do anything at all when you wash the record new.

If there is interest, I can wash the two records and repeat the test, to see if the washing is effective and to confirm that what I am extracting is in the surface and rule out that the solvent penetrates the PVC. I can also leave the washed records for a few months and repeat the test to see if new material has appeared on the surface. Just let me know.

 

[madrac]

FWIW, I clean all my vinyl, new or used, in a Degritter on Heavy before playing. I also then resleeve in Mo-Fi or equivalent (e.g. Diskeeper) sleeves, then put the album in an outer jacket. Whether or not new vinyl needs to be cleaned is debatable (unless visibly dirty/dusty) when opened, but I don't think it hurts.

 

[SIY]

When I did this, I noticed that the solvent left a very slight mark (at the edges of the solvent drop) on the European vinyl, what tells me there is soluble stuff on the surface.

Or that the heptane leached from the surface and some depth in. Your experiment does not distinguish surface material from leached material.

If you have an ATR accessory for the FTIR, you can look at the surface directly without exposing it to a potentially leaching solvent first.

 

[MCH]

Or that the heptane leached from the surface and some depth in. Your experiment does not distinguish surface material from leached material.

It will if I wash and repeat. (As said, if there is interest, all this takes time). However I don't expect heptane to penetrate significantly in PVC at room temperature

If you have an ATR accessory for the FTIR, you can look at the surface directly without exposing it to a potentially leaching solvent first.

I do have an ATR, but would need to cut a piece, the geometry does not allow to put the record on top of the crystal + with such tiny quantities and the substrate there with plenty of overlapping signals, it will be difficult to see anything.
I will search and see if I have a record that is relatively new and I don't mind cutting.

 

[SIY]

However I don't expect heptane to penetrate significantly in PVC at room temperature

It doesn't have to penetrate to leach out mobile species.

The other thing to be cautious about (which you probably know) is that linear alkanes all look pretty similar.

I hope you can find a record to sacrifice. ATR accessories vary a lot for sample capability- the Bruker I currently use (and deeply hate) also has a size restriction because of stupid and unnecessary mechanical design choices, though the ATR microscope is a bit better in that regard. The Nicolet I previously used was far better in that respect.

 

[MCH]

It doesn't have to penetrate to leach out mobile species.

The other thing to be cautious about (which you probably know) is that linear alkanes all look pretty similar.

Yes sure, I added the match list for reference only as I don't expect people here familiar with this, but it can indeed be any length

I hope you can find a record to sacrifice. ATR accessories vary a lot for sample capability- the Bruker I currently use (and deeply hate) also has a size restriction because of stupid and unnecessary mechanical design choices, though the ATR microscope is a bit better in that regard. The Nicolet I previously used was far better in that respect.

The one I use is conical, so no way. But will try to cut out something and measure it. It won't be easy to do without touching it, but will try my best.

 

[Thomas_A]

I’ve tried commercial record cleaning machines with both their cleaners and my own brew (some very cool surfactants), and ultrasonics.

My suspicion is that the hardened dust particles stick very hard to the surface and grooves.

(I might try a Phillips Sonicare toothbrush with the 0.1 mm soft bristles (I wish there could be < 50 µm bristles though). I might try it for a few records that have been cleaned incorrectly (and is "permanently" noisy). Just as an experiment. Another try I will do is to use alkaline water with mild detergent, around pH 10. It dissolves dirt more effectively according to my experiments, but I don't know if the vinyl is affected.)

 

[MCH]

Hello,

I got curious about this and did a couple of tests in case you find them interesting.

Background:
I have no idea about vinyl formulation, but all the formulas I have seen online in patents etc. include some form of wax/plasticizer. The serious literature I could find is very old, and things might have changed and newer ingredients available, however I don’t think this is an active development field since many years ago and I still expect to find some form of plasticizer there.
Even if those are not used as mold release, as stated above by @SIY , it does not mean they are not going to migrate to the surface and leach, if they have enough mobility.

This test does not intent to be exhaustive let alone quantitative, I would need a lot more time and work to do that. You can put it in the “anecdotal evidence” drawer, but at least it will provide some real data to stir the discussion.

I have chosen two records to test. I received both new and factory sealed. I never cleaned them. I never touched nor used them. I chose one record made in Europe and another made in US, as in my experience (not in vinyl formulation but in general in the chemical industry), ingredients tend to change in between regions due to tradition, availability, REACH, etc, etc.

I received the European record a bit over one year ago, it was published in 2022 so I guess it was made sometime in 2021 or 2022, enough for plasticizers to migrate in to the surface but still recent enough to call it “new”. It is one of these cheapo euro compilations that you find often at the FNAC. I believe many of those are self produced.

The US record I received it earlier in 2022 and is a classic record (A Jolly Christmas from Frank Sinatra) that could have been made any time, but is a recent edition, what you would get if you buy this album new nowadays, I don’t think it is older than a few years.

What I did was to put a bit of n-heptane on the surface of the record (on the inner groove so that it does not spread too much through the grooves and because Xmas is approaching and I might fancy to listen to old blue eyes haha) and recollect it to a vial. I repeated this a few times over a surface of ca. 5 cm2 (not measured, might be a bit more or less from one record to the other).

When I did this, I noticed that the solvent left a very slight mark (at the edges of the solvent drop) on the European vinyl, what tells me there is soluble stuff on the surface. There is also a very slight mark left on the US record but it is much more difficult to see, barely noticeable.

I chose Heptane because it wont damage the record too much and most importantly because it might be a decent enough solvent for apolar waxes and plastizicers that might migrate to the surface. I preferrend not to use lighter solvents like hexanes or pentane to avoid as much as possible that they penetrate the substrate. Please note that the solubility of those waxes (for instance carnauba and others that I found in the vinyl patent literature) in heptane is not very high, but considering the small amounts were are aiming at here, it should be good enough. If there are other polar additives there, or high molecular weight waxes or other polymers, heptane is not going to extract them. As heptane will not penetrate much in the PVC, we can assume that whatever it extracts is on the surface, either because it migrated there or because it was already there from the beginning.

Then I put a couple of drops of the extract on Zinc Selenide IR window and obtain the FT-IR:

The EU record extract contains a fair amount of material. The spectrum matches that of low molecular weight Polyethylene (wax).
View attachment 321077
The ZnSe window does not allow to see the signal at 700 cm-1 typical for these substances.
The match vs a reference library is not perfect (most specially the signal at higest frequency) but is pretty decent:
View attachment 321078

The US pressing extract has much less material. I struggled to get a decent spectrum. As you can see, there spectrum has more noise because the intensity of the absorption bands is really weak. What it shows is also some kind of polyethylene wax, but most probably different to the EU record. The fact that there is less in the extract is either that it is a wax with higher molecular weight that has less mobility that migrates less and/or is less soluble (most probably) or it contains less to start with.
View attachment 321084
again compared against a library:
View attachment 321087
yup, some sort of polyethylene wax.
I was expecting to find some carnauba or similar ester stuff, but definitely there is no ester there.

Well, as conclusions, what I observed here is yes, new vinyl might contain some wax on the surface that in some cases you can wash with some soap if you want to. If washing this is beneficial or the opposite, I cannot tell.
In other cases, like the US record tested here, i doubt that you do anything at all when you wash the record new.

If there is interest, I can wash the two records and repeat the test, to see if the washing is effective and to confirm that what I am extracting is in the surface and rule out that the solvent penetrates the PVC. I can also leave the washed records for a few months and repeat the test to see if new material has appeared on the surface. Just let me know.

Just some additional info.

I cleaned the EU record with water and soap like I usually do and repeated the extraction with solvent on the same side, same inner groove just a different area where I did it yesterday. I used tergitol 15-s-9 that for some reason I don’t know is what some vinyl aficionados recommend, but it is just regular nonionic surfactant. I used this and not regular hand soap (what I normally use) so that if I see something unexpected in the spectrum I can identify it easily.

As you can see there is still a little bit of the same stuff detectable, but if you look at the absorbance is ca. 50 times lower than before cleaning. The grass is just background noise/crap due to the very weak signal. This demonstrates that most of the stuff was on the surface and is washable. Maybe something left, maybe something extracted by the solvent from the inside, but in irrelevant amount.

What it does not tell if it was leached from the inside or if the composition is homogeneous and it just happens to be the material that was originally there. To find out, I will repeat the test a few months from now (if I remember) and see if new wax has migrated.

 

[madrac]

For the ultimate "Bible" on vinyl record cleaning, check out Neil Antin's Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records - free on thevinylpress.com.
As I recall, Neil spent is career in the US Navy engaged in precision cleaning techniques.

 

[WDeranged]

I've obsessed over this for the last three years since I got back into vinyl. I've tried every cleaning method currently available and so far I've not heard any truly appreciable difference in sound quality after cleaning a new record. Neither have I removed a single pop or click by cleaning a new record.

Older records are a different story. Huge, obvious differences in distortion, noise and resolution.

Of course my system might not resolve as much as others. Same goes for my ears. Many people swear that it's essential to clean new vinyl and some records really do arrive dusty as hell straight from the factory. Ultimately there's no real downside to doing it if your cleaning method is solid. I've seen many posts from people complaining that their freshly cleaned record sounds worse.

Having been down that rabbit hole I just can't be bothered cleaning new vinyl unless it arrives noticeably dirty.

 

[Salt]

Had a 'vinyl cleaning event' some weeks ago, with me and my youngest tilting some new vinyls into former clean 'water' of the ultrasone&brush cleaner.
After a 2 dozens the liquid looked like having washed 2 dozens of glasses left from day's before party.
Don't think that was ambient pollution...

 

[cgallery]

Yes, I was unclear and sloppy in my terminology. The mystery remains, though- if the Lenco just stirs up mud which cakes on drying, why do records played with that system remain noisy even after a deep cleaning?

I suspect because the users ran out of fluid and switched to making their own using tap water.

I recall people with Dishwashers running out of fluid and making their own. "It is just as good." Nope, you used tap water. Go look at your coffee pot to see what is in your water.

 

[WDeranged]

I suspect because the users ran out of fluid and switched to making their own using tap water.

I recall people with Dishwashers running out of fluid and making their own. "It is just as good." Nope, you used tap water. Go look at your coffee pot to see what is in your water.

I'm less sceptical when it comes to homemade fluids. I think most detergents are up to the task of cleaning a vinyl surface but a rinse stage is essential. I was frustrated by freshly cleaned records coming out noisier until I started doing a thorough rinse.

And you're absolutely correct that tap water is lethal.