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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

Basic Channel

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Not the perception of my instrument (the piano): I just made a test proposed by Ellebob to differentiate Loseless audio from MP3 (128 and 320 kbps) and it took me less than 5 seconds to identify the good track on a piano recording.

Way more difficult in electric music, and also missed 2 from the 6 tracks proposed.

Take away a carpet on my room and I will noticed immediately when I play. Not superior hearing, I’m 48 years old, but 41 years playing educate the ear on slight dynamic changes or something that I cannot express.

Most of the people cannot differentiate a moderately out of tune piano, I was surprised how people didn’t realize what for us were evident at my conservatory epoch.

I think purely acoustic music is easier to detect small changes, as for example an electric guitar sound partially as its amplifier and speaker do; so no real thing as a reference (unless unplugged of course)

I still maintain moving your head around the room will change the sound more than DACs in a room. Moving the carpet will always change the sound if you expect it to (I am not saying it doesn't). I can hear a change when I listen for it, expect it, etc.

I see the test you are referring to and did a similar one years ago, 320kbps is not lossless btw. I agree it's easier to spot differences with acoustic music. A piano note is harmonically very complex and has a recognisable sound. Hand Beethoven sheet music for 'synth' and what does he hear in his head? I'd say sometimes these differences are exaggerated because the electronic music used isn't very good.

The sound of 128kbps and 320kbps MP3 is way more different than any non broken DACs should ever be. Especially specifically bought DACs.
 

ahofer

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So fun, from someone who try to protect me against unnecessary money expense it costs more than 1.500€…
Most of us have some "item of regret" in our gear pile. I sold a bunch of mine (including a VTL tube amp) a while ago, but still have a Cambridge Edge DAC/Pre-amp. The streaming software is excellent at least. The most cost-effective DAC or amp for you is quite often the one you already have.

OTOH, high end cables, one of the stupidest of all audio woo purchases, hold their value and are very liquid in the second hand market. I had one set of 25 year-old high end speaker cables at a good length. I still can't believe I got $600 for them in 48 hours of listing. It took 6 months to sell the IFI DAC ($1200).
 

Miss_Sissy

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I think you have to learn a little bit about statistics and its limitations.
I was doing graduate-level statistical analysis and statistical software development back in the early 1980s. I think I can keep up.

I give you an example: a traumatologist stated few days ago “orthotics cannot do anything to your plantar fascitis, they are only placebos”. He was quoting a study made on the topic that showed no significant relief on symptoms.

In the study some people improved symptoms, others remain unchanged and some became even worse by increasing foot pain.

My colleague extracted the wrong personal conclusion that nothing was happened because ON AVERAGE the score remained barely unchanged.
The fact that a patient reports a change to their condition doesn't mean that some recently undertaken therapy is the cause of the change -- or even that there really was a change. With no treatment at all, how many of the plantar fasciitis sufferers would have reported that their condition got better, worse, or remained unchanged over the that same time period? If a patient was given a "special shoe" that the doctor said should reduce the pain, how many of them would believe that they were experiencing less pain, even if the shoe was secretly just some random sneaker bought at Walmart? That's why medical researchers rely on blind studies and statistics.

I don’t think blind test are needed in commercial audio because statistics fail to predict individual responses.
It's not about predicting any individual's responses. It's about determining whether differences you think that you hear 'mysteriously' vanish when you don't know which DAC you are listening to.

But on the process of buying a DAC, people can try personally their sensorial experience, I think is not bad in science (especially in perception ones) to be humble and recognize we don’t know everything
You're free to evaluate audio components by whatever criteria you want. If you want to switch between two DACs and then pat yourself on the back for hearing the differences that you hoped or expected to hear, go for it. But it's still bad science.
 
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Miguelón

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Most of us have some "item of regret" in our gear pile. I sold a bunch of mine (including a VTL tube amp) a while ago, but still have a Cambridge Edge DAC/Pre-amp. The streaming software is excellent at least. The most cost-effective DAC or amp for you is quite often the one you already have.
I’m quite happy with my 180€ Focusrite that can also make recordings with its ADC (I’m afraid to mention how different ADCs can influence recordings, expecting hundreds of posts stating that is psychological: I just bought it because was cheap and had good reviews).

Nevertheless I respect people who buy expensive stuff, perhaps someone can hear the difference or perhaps not: until my entrance in ASR universe I never seen a battle like professionals against audiophiles have trying to convince the others that they have the truth.

My original claim, impossible to proof online, is that actually I can distinguish easily between my two DACs: I received a lot of comments stating that is a psychological fact but no one showed measurements of none of both devices. Since yesterday I try to convince myself that the Ifi Zen Signature is not quite bad for me, but I still find it harsh on trebles and fatiguing, no matter the gain adjustments I do on the Genelecs

Who knows? Perhaps my Scarlettism has been fixed permanently on my subconscious
 

Miguelón

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I was doing graduate-level statistical analysis and statistical software development back in the early 1980s. I think I can keep up.


The fact that a patient reports a change to their condition doesn't mean that some recently undertaken therapy is the cause of the change -- or even that there really was a change. With no treatment at all, how many of the plantar fasciitis sufferers would have reported that their condition got better, worse, or remained unchanged over the that same time period? If a patient was given a "special shoe" that the doctor said should reduce the pain, how many of them would believe that they were dealing less pain, even if the shoe was secretly just some random sneaker bought at Walmart? That's why medical researchers rely on blind studies and statistics.


It's not about predicting any individual's responses. It's about determining whether differences you think that you hear 'mysteriously' vanish when you don't know which DAC you are listening to.


You're free to evaluate audio components by whatever criteria you want. If you want to switch between two DACs and then pat yourself on the back for hearing the differences that you hoped or expected to hear, go for it. But it's still bad science.
Many people think that doing statistics is same thing about knowing statistics.
But it isn’t.

On average we know that we cannot change global scores on plantar fascitis, but we are completely sure that insoles or shoe adaptations can change things: the problem is that for many people pain became worse, temporarily.

Not knowing which patient can obtain benefits from insoles, we usually tell the patient what we know and let to decide by itself.

A statistical test on a population about DAC audibility will show a correlation: if is 0 or low enough correlation between some variable (give a number between 0 and 10 for the quality of sound for example)and some different dacs we can conclude that no correlation have been found, thats all. If you take the conclusion that no one can feel a change of quality on the dacs, is another conclusion that is out of the possibilities of your trial.

You can also made another test with two different dacs and giving some samples to ask if the subject is listening for different things or it thinks that are the same.

Again, your statistical conclusion can be low correlation between dacs and influence on the sound (which is more focused on the primary question of the post, don’t asking for quality just differences).
Once more, a conclusion that no one can distinguish between two dacs is outside the statistics: only you have some probability strength asserting that different dacs don’t change perception on a population. Letting you with a strong argument if someone ask you for some DAC for a public event to answer “no dac will provide the public better experience”. On an individual you can carefully explain the obtained statistics and let him tray by itself. As I mentioned before the tests don’t tell you anything about this particular person.

I let you a funny problem that is given again and again to students to begin learning which knowledge can be obtained from probability and statistics:
You have a circle of radius 1 m, and another of radius 2 m with the same center (the little inside the bigger).
Which is the probability of finding a point inside the smallest circle?
 
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ahofer

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Many people think that doing statistics is same thing about knowing statistics.
But it isn’t.

On average we know that we cannot change global scores on plantar fascitis, but we are completely sure that insoles or shoe adaptations can change things: the problem is that for many people pain became worse, temporarily.

Not knowing which patient can obtain benefits from insoles, we usually tell the patient what we know and let to decide by itself.

A statistical test on a population about DAC audibility will show a correlation: if is 0 or low enough correlation between some variable (give a number between 0 and 10 for the quality of sound for example)and some different dacs we can conclude that no correlation have been found, thats all. If you take the conclusion that no one can feel a change of quality on the dacs, is another conclusion that is out of the possibilities of your trial.

You can also made another test with two different dacs and giving some samples to ask if the subject is listening for different things or it thinks that are the same.

Again, your statistical conclusion can be low correlation between dacs and influence on the sound (which is more focused on the primary question of the post, don’t asking for quality just differences).
Once more, a conclusion that no one can distinguish between two dacs is outside the statistics: only you have some probability strength asserting that different dacs don’t change perception on a population. Letting you with a strong argument if someone ask you for some DAC for a public event to answer “no dac will provide the public better experience”. On an individual you can carefully explain the obtained statistics and let him tray by itself. As I mentioned before the tests don’t tell you anything about this particular person.

I let you a funny problem that is given again and again to students to begin learning which knowledge can be obtained from probability and statistics:
You have a circle of radius 1 m, and another of radius 2 m with the same center (the little inside the bigger).
Which is the probability of finding a point inside the smallest circle?
The Null Hypothesis (no audible difference) can not be rejected on current evidence that any of us have seen. I think there are some issues with how you are framing the problem.
 

Geert

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On an individual you can carefully explain the obtained statistics and let him tray by itself. As I mentioned before the tests don’t tell you anything about this particular person.

After more than 30 years of digital audio, the "correlation between dacs and influence on the sound" found in documented controled listening tests of DAC's which measure audible transparent is 0, zero, nada, rien. On the other hand we have thousands of audiophiles who believe they can hear differences. This includes lots of people with age-related hearing loss. No doubt you have some theory on statistics to explain why we shouldn't draw any conclusions from this.
 

melomane13

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My original claim, impossible to proof online, is that actually I can distinguish easily between my two DACs: I received a lot of comments stating that is a psychological fact but no one showed measurements of none of both devices
yes, you can prouve it, if you make a correct abx test
 

Miguelón

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After more than 30 years of digital audio, the "correlation between dacs and influence on the sound" found in documented controled listening tests of DAC's which measure audible transparent is 0, zero, nada, rien. On the other hand we have thousands of audiophiles who believe they can hear differences. This includes lots of people with age-related hearing loss. No doubt you have some theory on statistics to explain why we shouldn't draw any conclusions from this.
Very happy to find someone who expresses well the problem: how to explain the discrepancy between measurements and people perception?

There is only a few possibilities:

1-in most of the dacs many people are victim of some kind of psychological effect (the most accepted on this forum)
2-Trials and / or measurements are not enough to explain the discrepancy. Some hidden variable is present that is not taken to account.

I’m not sure at all if I’m victim of the first hypothesis or the second possibility is true. My intuition says me 1 is false, but is bizarre to find 2 in 30 years of audio evolution.

Just as a remote possibility, some brands introduce deliberate EQ that will show audible differences: remote as probably the measurements or the tests will show also a difference unless they can produce some artifacts non related to distortion nor FQ response.

Are you sure that a huge number of DACs are tested? Market is totally inundated by a tide of DACs, the better I know (Ifi) has more than 8 iterations of its Zen ecosystem. Marketing strategies can push the brand to introduce subtle variations to help buyers to spent their money on special editions, Pro models and stuff like that.

More inclined to think that 1 is true in majority of cases, but as a consumer I still stick with my beloved Focusrite. Is cheap and beautiful, and has balanced outputs :)
 

amper42

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After more than 30 years of digital audio, the "correlation between dacs and influence on the sound" found in documented controled listening tests of DAC's which measure audible transparent is 0, zero, nada, rien. On the other hand we have thousands of audiophiles who believe they can hear differences. This includes lots of people with age-related hearing loss. No doubt you have some theory on statistics to explain why we shouldn't draw any conclusions from this.

While I would agree that two high quality DACs setup with the same exact filter roll off should sound similar, that's not exactly the case with many comparisons. As an example, I can make my RME ADI-2 DAC FS sound notably different by simply switching filters from SD Sharp to SD Slow. And if I engage the Loudness feature the currently playing music track can be much more engaging. On top of that the RME Remote software EQ can also dramatically change the sound. I customize an ADI-2 DAC for each speaker setup and simply push a button to use my preferred setup.

When I AB compare my Topping D90SE to the RME ADI-2 DAC FS it doesn't sound the same - even with EQ and Loudness turned off. So, I can see why some might think different DACs sound different. However, if you have a DAC like the RME ADI-2 you aren't stuck with a single sound signature. You can make the music come to life more than with any other DAC I have used. It's an awesome piece of gear. To me it's the "Chameleon DAC". Whatever sound you want, the RME ADI-2 DAC FS can deliver. It even made my little BMR Monitors in my office sound amazingly close to Revel F328Be speakers in the next room. I haven't found another DAC that compares. The RME Software Remote is a game changer that makes this DAC the most important tool in any of my speaker setups.

RME Remote.png
 

Blumlein 88

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Very happy to find someone who expresses well the problem: how to explain the discrepancy between measurements and people perception?
Our senses have some similarities in how they function. How to explain the discrepancy between measurements and people's perception in audio? The same way you explain discrepancies in our other senses. You also determine whether the perception is accurate or not the same way. You are refusing to acknowledge that. You appear to be making every excuse in the book not to properly test yourself and you are willing to believe every possibility any possibility except the most common and likely possibility.
 

Purité Audio

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While I would agree that two high quality DACs setup with the same exact filter roll off should sound similar, that's not exactly the case with many comparisons. As an example, I can make my RME ADI-2 DAC FS sound notably different by simply switching filters from SD Sharp to SD Slow. And if I engage the Loudness feature the currently playing music track can be much more engaging. On top of that the RME Remote software EQ can also dramatically change the sound. I customize an ADI-2 DAC for each speaker setup and simply push a button to use my preferred setup.

When I AB compare my Topping D90SE to the RME ADI-2 DAC FS it doesn't sound the same - even with EQ and Loudness turned off. So, I can see why some might think different DACs sound different. However, if you have a DAC like the RME ADI-2 you aren't stuck with a single sound signature. You can make the music come to life more than with any other DAC I have used. It's an awesome piece of gear. To me it's the "Chameleon DAC". Whatever sound you want, the RME ADI-2 DAC FS can deliver. It even made my little BMR Monitors in my office sound amazingly close to Revel F328Be speakers in the next room. I haven't found another DAC that compares. The RME Software Remote is a game changer that makes this DAC the most important tool in any of my speaker setups.

View attachment 365104
RME super dacs but here they do sound like every other fine measuring dac.
Keith
 

SIY

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Just as a remote possibility, some brands introduce deliberate EQ that will show audible differences:
And somehow, magically, none of them are ever tested/measured here, in my work (or anyone else at AudioXpress), at Stereophile... these are very elusive DACs.
As an example, I can make my RME ADI-2 DAC FS sound notably different by simply switching filters from SD Sharp to SD Slow.
How have you tested this? If memory serves, the FR differences in the audible range are quite small and the differences in the audible range of people who aren't under 21 are close to nonexistent.
 

olieb

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And somehow, magically, none of them are ever tested/measured here, in my work (or anyone else at AudioXpress), at Stereophile... these are very elusive DACs.
You know how it is, this behavior shows only with [golden] ears ("natural"), not with measurements ("artificial").
 
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