Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Inner Space]

I know that it cannot be put on paper or measured, but it is true.

Great! Thanks for clearing that up. I'm sure we're all relieved.

 

[Hart]

But maybe we aren't burning our expensive cables in long enough

The problem is getting the sweet spot, where a cable is broken in but not worn out. I would also avoid any junk cable less than 6 gauge. You speaker wire budget should be three times your amp budget.

 

[oleg87]

If, for example, you compare with a car. Let's take Mercedes and Dacia, or some Chinese cars of the same specifications (cm3, kW, Nm), with the same tire. Do you think the enjoyment of driving a Mercedes and those other cars will be the same. You are mistaken. But what are we going to do now, where should we attach our trusty measuring instrument to measure the enjoyment of driving. Let's face it, both cars will take you from place A to place B, but they are not the same.

I don’t think the question of whether a luxury product provides some value to its owner is in any dispute.
The question is where the “placebo” part of it begins. If hypothetically the Mercedes powertrain is by every technical measure we've devised to quantify engine performance is equivalent to the "chi-fi" equivalent (setting aside factors like engine sound), it stands to reason that any difference in the driving experience does not come down to the powertrain.

 

[BDWoody]

It seems that some of you are having a hard time accepting the idea that not all DACs sound the same, and that measurement results are not all we need.

I'll ignore the fact that you are misrepresenting what is being claimed by most here, and simply respond that I have a hard time believing that which is backed only by anecdote, and no actual evidence, especially when the evidence that IS available strongly suggests whatever is being claimed isn't reasonable.

Without evidence, and just continuing to repeat yourself over and over without engaging beyond that, means your time in this thread is over.

When you can find or develop evidence, please PM me directly and I'll open this thread back up to you.

 

[JustJones]

I've owned luxury cars and clunkers the most enjoyable cars I drove weren't the luxury models. I would say an old 73 MGB tops for enjoyment.

. Do you think the enjoyment of driving a Mercedes and those other cars will be the same. You are mistaken

 

[Spkrdctr]

When did these tests happen? How were they determined to sound different? Headphones or speakers? Since this is the first time I have heard of this I'd like to know more about it. So far with speakers no one has ever been able to tell any difference in anything except speakers. For DACs to be audible it seems that they would really have to have some serious differences. Enough of a difference to overcome the speakers influence on the sound. Thanks!

Hmmm not one answer to my questions. Instead, I read more about subjective sighted listening tests and how they were so easy to tell apart. So, this is all opinion based on pure rubbish instead of tests. I have to say I will turn this over to DonR and others to engage. I can't get past a few sentences without my BS meter being pegged. In fact I think the needle just broke from hitting the little peg at max range. I will have to get a new BS meter. Dang it!

 

[DonR]

Funnily enough, Dacia and Mercedes use the same engine in some models. By some accounts, Dacia is the most "satisfying" brand to own, easily beating out Mercedes which is renowned for woeful customer service.

 

[fpitas]

But maybe we aren't burning our expensive cables in long enough

I wait until the smoke stops rolling off.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I'll ignore the fact that you are misrepresenting what is being claimed by most here, and simply respond that I have a hard time believing that which is backed only by anecdote, and no actual evidence, especially when the evidence that IS available strongly suggests whatever is being claimed isn't reasonable.

Without evidence, and just continuing to repeat yourself over and over without engaging beyond that, means your time in this thread is over.

When you can find or develop evidence, please PM me directly and I'll open this thread back up to you.

Thank you.

 

[DSJR]

Ran across this old and great example of "the test must be wrong":



Who you gonna believe, me or your lyin' ears?!?!

That quote - I and a colleage heard a distinct difference between three Naim bolt-up 250's (freshly set up) and the then new 'CB' 250... The Quad 405 had current limiting built in which was eased a lot in mk2 versions, but this amp was never keen on 'difficult' loads and hooligans like me had the casework rather too hot for comfort... These days, a Quad Artera Stereo is so basically 'good' I suspect anything else with far superior SINAD results would make for inaudible differences if compared properly... I mean, how many of 'us' can hear 1% distortion consistently(-40dB), unless it's sprayed all over high frequencies?

P.S. the Michaelson & Austin TVA1 amp went through a few versions (all hand built on a large kitchen table I remember ). Each different version throttled the output stage more and more to increase the power and the 'sound' became harsher and harsher with each version.

 

[atmasphere]

Some may find this hard to believe, but I still have some hope we'll discover something new about audibility thresholds or audible differences. Sensitivity to IM distortion, an assertion that @atmasphere made about dynamics enhanced by transient distortion...that type of stuff. But I also find it frustrating that those espousing the differences (so far) simply WILL NOT subject their ideas to a transparent, public, controlled, experimental challenge. That raises a lot of suspicion.

To be clear, I said that in SETs, their 'dynamic' quality about which you can read in most reviews on SETs, is the result of higher ordered harmonics showing up above about 20-25% of full power in those amps. Since music has a lot of transients and that's where the power is, the presence of the higher ordered harmonic distortion is interpreted by the ear brain system as 'louder' when it actually isn't. IOW distortion on transients isn't the same as transient distortion.

Similarly, many SET owners will say that the 7 Watts they have is plenty of power even when driving a speaker of only 91 dB in a moderately sized room because it gets 'loud enough'. These are both examples of distortion masquerading as 'dynamics' and sound pressure because the ear uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure.

That the ear does so should not be controversial at all since its so easily demonstrated with simple test equipment.

Nor should my assertion be controversial since the harmonic spectra is easily seen when the amp is subjected to measurement. IOW all of this is stuff we already know.

 

[ahofer]

It seems that some of you are having a hard time accepting the idea that not all DACs sound the same

Indeed. It seems you are having trouble accepting the mountains of evidence and research about what humans can distinguish in audible signals. Note the difference: you don’t accept evidence, we don’t accept your unsupported assertions.

I’m sorry, but that’s where we are.

 

[ahofer]

That the ear does so should not be controversial at all since its so easily demonstrated with simple test equipment.

Nor should my assertion be controversial since the harmonic spectra is easily seen when the amp is subjected to measurement. IOW all of this is stuff we already know.

I’d just like to see that listeners can tell the difference in a controlled test-controlled for sight and for other artifacts that tube amps introduce. If such a study has been done, please provide a citation. Otherwise this is a hypothesis.

Incidentally, I suspect it may be true. But that doesn’t mean it is exempt from standards we try to maintain.

 

[Blumlein 88]

That's nothing. I can give you examples what people were able to "hear" when I spoke with them during audiophile meetings:

- change of power fuse for the type from another manufacturer
- reversing (mechanical) the fuse in the fuse holder
- change of mains plug on the power cord
- change of wire that interconnects binding posts on the rear panel of the speaker box (bi-wiring binding posts)
- change of 3-gang plug socket for another type
- change of the home wall installation wires

The same people, however were often unable to detect:
- phase reversal for 1 of 2 stereo speakers
- switching off the tweeter driver in the 3-way speaker during playing music
- monophonic sound

I have to admit I was doing these changes intentionally to see how some of the golden ears are able to discern huge sound changes. They were probably rather "micro-changes" oriented .

In some posts where I put up three files with two identical and one different on another forum, most who responded insisted they all sounded different. Now to prevent easy cheating I did remove like 7 samples at the beginning of one of the identical files. This way a check sum or a look at file length or dropping into an editor and flipping polarity wouldn't make it possible to cheat. I don't know how many were trying to cheat, but quite a few came back saying they weren't really the same. When I explained what I had done dozens insisted that was enough to alter the quality of the file. Now in fairness with instant switching in Foobar or something there is some chance the time difference might make it audible. But none of the complainers were doing this as I had asked for Foobar results which none provided.

When I offered fully identical files without the snip on one end, as in bit perfect identical all the way, there were still claims of them sounding different with people saying noise from the PC I prepared the files on were causing them to sound different as PC noise isn't consistent moment to moment.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

In some posts where I put up three files with two identical and one different on another forum, most who responded insisted they all sounded different. Now to prevent easy cheating I did remove like 7 samples at the beginning of one of the identical files. This way a check sum or a look at file length or dropping into an editor and flipping polarity wouldn't make it possible to cheat. I don't know how many were trying to cheat, but quite a few came back saying they weren't really the same. When I explained what I had done dozens insisted that was enough to alter the quality of the file. Now in fairness with instant switching in Foobar or something there is some chance the time difference might make it audible. But none of the complainers were doing this as I had asked for Foobar results which none provided.

When I offered fully identical files without the snip on one end, as in bit perfect identical all the way, there were still claims of them sounding different with people saying noise from the PC I prepared the files on were causing them to sound different as PC noise isn't consistent moment to moment.

Lol

One wonders that despite all the moment to moment changing PC noise their nonsense arrives ungarbled in one of these forums. Amazing.
(Although I wish it wouldn’t ;-))

 

[Spkrdctr]

OK, I bought my brand new BS meter. I will try not to get this one broken. They cost almost $100!! I'm expecting the Moderators to keep this one in good working order.

I know, it is mission impossible,,,,,,,,,

 

[voodooless]

OK, I bought my brand new BS meter. I will try not to get this one broken. They cost almost $100!! I'm expecting the Moderators to keep this one in good working order.

I know, it is mission impossible,,,,,,,,,

Sorry dude, that one is not resolving enough

 

[ironwolf60]

from my experience:

topping dx3 sounds too analytical.
topping dx1 with akm is very musical, maybe too much.
smsl c200 is a good middle ground between the two.

so not only different dacs have a sound signature, but the same dac with different tuning also sound different.

 

[lateralous]

from my experience:

topping dx3 sounds too analytical.
topping dx1 with akm is very musical, maybe too much.
smsl c200 is a good middle ground between the two.

so not only different dacs have a sound signature, but the same dac with different tuning also sound different.

Please read the question this thread is posing, no one cares about your personal "experience" injected at random.

 

[Blumlein 88]

OK, I bought my brand new BS meter. I will try not to get this one broken. They cost almost $100!! I'm expecting the Moderators to keep this one in good working order.

I know, it is mission impossible,,,,,,,,,

Is it oxygen free? Or cryogenically treated? I hear the cryogenics reduces the stress on it.