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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

My question is: Why have more than one DAC in your system? I have the one, and I'm moving on....
In my system shown few posts back...the Topping Dx7 pro has the ESS9038Pro DAC while the other DAC is the Topping D70 Pro which has 2 AK4497 chip. In these implementation both at DAC mode, the sound of ESS will have punchy tight clinical sound while the AKM will have airier sound and more musical. Sometimes I just prefer the ESS, sometimes the AKM...just celebrate the differences, pure bliss .
:)
 
In these implementation both at DAC mode, the sound of ESS will have punchy tight clinical sound while the AKM will have airier sound and more musical
Any proof that they do? Those dacs should both be transparent.
 
Another rabbit hole ? :)

Or maybe a need for separating functionality and characteristics when talking about the "sound" of things.

In these implementation both at DAC mode, the sound of ESS will have punchy tight clinical sound while the AKM will have airier sound and more musical.

Sounds like AKM's use of the word "velvet" has had the desired effect on your biases.
 
This post originally started as a question about DACs but I thought it would be better to explain my current understanding first (question is at the end).

As an economist, I see four problems in the audiophile market which act against a potential buyer getting reliable information and value for money:

Informational Asymmetry

The average buyer has listened to a limited number of DACs and audio equipment, often relying on specifications and reviews rather than extensive firsthand experience. Meanwhile, dealers and salespeople have access to a broader range of products and more in-depth knowledge. This creates a significant informational gap where sellers possess more information about the true performance and subtle differences between equipment than buyers do.

Principal-Agent Problem

Salespeople, reviewers, and influencers (the agents) have incentives that do not align with the principals (consumers). For example, salespeople receive more money for selling higher-priced equipment, regardless of whether these models offer audible improvements. Similarly, reviewers may be incentivised through sponsorships or advertising revenue to favour certain brands or products, potentially compromising their objectivity.

Misaligned Incentives

Many reviewers rely on partnerships with manufacturers for their income. This financial dependency can lead to biased reviews that emphasise perceived differences between DACs/equipment, even when objective measurements suggest minimal or no audible distinctions. Additionally, content creators may prioritise sensational claims to attract more viewers or subscribers, further distorting the perceived value and performance of various DACs.

Separately, reviewers and influencers make money from new content and are therefore incentivised to keep reviewing new gear, even if what's currently available is so good any further improvements would be inaudible to a human.

Placebo Effect & Status

Some people may think they hear differences due to the placebo effect. They feel better with more expensive gear but it isn't an objective difference somebody else could hear. I've had multiple salespeople tell me 'high end' audio is about feeling. In addition, some people prefer more expensive gear for the status they think it gives them. Neither of these are things that I care about.

My question​

Is there any truth to well-engineered DACs sounding different from each other?

Specifically, in a well-treated room with optimal speaker and listener placement, is there any REAL difference in what you would hear between any of the high-scoring DACs Amir has tested?
From what I understand, once the SINAD is good enough the human ear wouldn't be able to tell any difference. Yet there are countless reviewers, salespeople, YouTubers, etc., who claim that (well-built) DACs do sound different.

Is this just a combination of outright lies, delusion and the problems stated above, or is there some truth to it? Could it be that a linear power supply, higher resolution internal clocks, or passive analog volume control (vs digital) make a difference but the measurements required to test the effect are omitted from the tests Amir does? Or could it be that some DAC manufacturers add their own 'colour' (or EQ) to the output that is discernible by the human ear but still allows it to perform well on a SINAD measurement?

TLDR: is all of what reviewers/salespeople say complete BS or can two DACs that both measure well have one that sounds better than the other?
 
Is there any truth to well-engineered DACs sounding different from each other?
No

But we already have a well used thread discussing this back and forth for 500+pages. You'll probably find these posts are moved to that thread by the Mods, because this topic only goes in one direction.

 
While there may be slight differences in build - quality, there is absolutely no difference in sound quality and anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell a product, not tell the truth. At the end of the day, we are talking about a computer chip -- and that's it. PS I'm a former economics teacher (no PhD, sad to say), good to have a soulmate on board!
 
At the end of the day, we are talking about a computer chip
Plus a bunch of clock circuits, power supplies, and an analogue output stage - which is why they don't all measure exactly the same. :)
 
No

But we already have a well used thread discussing this back and forth for 500+pages. You'll probably find these posts are moved to that thread by the Mods, because this topic only goes in one direction.

Merged. Thank you @antcollinet .
 
From what I understand, once the SINAD is good enough the human ear wouldn't be able to tell any difference. Yet there are countless reviewers, salespeople, YouTubers, etc., who claim that (well-built) DACs do sound different.
If you really understand that then why do you need to ask the question? Or is it that you really don't understand or that you are actually disputing it?
 
If you really understand that then why do you need to ask the question? Or is it that you really don't understand or that you are actually disputing it?
I should have been clearer: this is my understanding from limited reading so far but it's not something I'm fully sure about.
 
I have spent the last day or so reading large parts of this thread. It has been an educational and rather painful experience - realising how much money I have wasted. Schitt Yggdrasil and fancy digital transport, I'm looking at you.....

I am posting to thank those who have repeatedly taken the time to share their expertise in this thread. I have to commend many of the regulars for their patience as, time and again, variants of the same claims have been made by 'newcomers' to this thread. Attempts are typically made to explain basic principles and guide, often quite gently, toward an understanding of the basic principles at work. The 'newcomers' are often resistant to the point of abusiveness, but the patience displayed is more often than not impressive.

Well done and thank you.
 
I should have been clearer: this is my understanding from limited reading so far but it's not something I'm fully sure about.
If you spend some time working through the interchanges in this thread, you will likely come away as sure in that conclusion as I think you can be. I am an economist too, and am pretty sure by now I have been led into some very poor and expensive audio equipment decisions which I understand after reading this thread and some of the material it links too.

An attempt to summarise the basic principles (from one economist to another....)

-The job of a DAC is to convert a digital representation of audio into a continuous voltage signal. That voltage signal is then passed to other equipment (preamps, speakers, headphones) to generate what we hear.
-Testing equipment can assess the accuracy of the digital to voltage conversion with a high degree of precision. Devices where any inaccuracies lie well outside of the bounds of human hearing can be referred to as being 'audibly transparent'
- Technology has developed to the point that many relatively inexpensive DACS are audibly transparent
- Once a device is audibly transparent its output is basically indistinguishable from other audibly transparent devices to the human ear under controlled listening/testing conditions. There is no "better soundstaging" or similar fairy dust that lies within the bounds of both (a) remaining accurate to the source material and (b) being reliably identified by listeners under controlled conditions.

As for your list as to why the structure of the audio equipment inmdustry is the way it is, you have simply used terms recognizable from the economics literature to express ideas which have been expressed in the prior 500+ pages multiple times. What an economist's perspective probably underplays, relative to the expertise of the contributors here, is the extent to which perceptual biases and "testing" outside of controlled conditions leads consumers to believe that objective differences in audio reproduction are present when in fact they are not.
 
If you spend some time working through the interchanges in this thread, you will likely come away as sure in that conclusion as I think you can be. I am an economist too, and am pretty sure by now I have been led into some very poor and expensive audio equipment decisions which I understand after reading this thread and some of the material it links too.

An attempt to summarise the basic principles (from one economist to another....)

-The job of a DAC is to convert a digital representation of audio into a continuous voltage signal. That voltage signal is then passed to other equipment (preamps, speakers, headphones) to generate what we hear.
-Testing equipment can assess the accuracy of the digital to voltage conversion with a high degree of precision. Devices where any inaccuracies lie well outside of the bounds of human hearing can be referred to as being 'audibly transparent'
- Technology has developed to the point that many relatively inexpensive DACS are audibly transparent
- Once a device is audibly transparent its output is basically indistinguishable from other audibly transparent devices to the human ear under controlled listening/testing conditions. There is no "better soundstaging" or similar fairy dust that lies within the bounds of both (a) remaining accurate to the source material and (b) being reliably identified by listeners under controlled conditions.

As for your list as to why the structure of the audio equipment inmdustry is the way it is, you have simply used terms recognizable from the economics literature to express ideas which have been expressed in the prior 500+ pages multiple times. What an economist's perspective probably underplays, relative to the expertise of the contributors here, is the extent to which perceptual biases and "testing" outside of controlled conditions consumers to believe that objective differences in audio reproduction are present when in fact they are not.
Really, thanks for the feedback. It is nice to know we sometimes help people towards a better understanding. It is feedback that we rarely get.

:)
 
Really, thanks for the feedback. It is nice to know we sometimes help people towards a better understanding. It is feedback that we rarely get.

:)
I feel very flattered that you didn't correct my inexpert attempt to summarise some basic principles at work here!

It was the conspicuous absence of any thanks for the sustained efforts of yourself and others that motivated me to register and post.
 
Guys, I was about to start a thread and strangely saw this one that it closely linked to what I wanted to ask.

What is stopping a DAC from being transparent with measurements but also emphasising (just for example) the upper mids and sub bass, for a certain signature.

Can this happen? If not, can someone explain so I understand it.

I guess I’m asking if there are ways (just like EQ) to colour sound by elevating certain frequencies, but almost hard baking it into the firmware.

Hope that makes sense.
 
What is stopping a DAC from being transparent with measurements but also emphasising (just for example) the upper mids and sub bass, for a certain signature.
I guess I’m asking if there are ways (just like EQ) to colour sound by elevating certain frequencies, but almost hard baking it into the firmware.

Any deviation from linearity in a DAC will show up in measurements. In case you're thinking of a non-linear output stage installed as a "trick" by the manufacturer ... that will show up in measurements, too.

Scientific measurements of a DAC are similar to an autopsy. There's no way to hide anything.
 
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