Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[JustJones]

Is there a minimum standard for a DAC's measured performance that once exceeded no person would be able to tell the difference anyway?
If so, is there any point in making a better measuring DAC if we can't hear the difference?

1.Yes
2.Yes, mainly to test the limits of engineering such devices.

 

[ahofer]

Is there a minimum standard for a DAC's measured performance that once exceeded no person would be able to tell the difference anyway?
If so, is there any point in making a better measuring DAC if we can't hear the difference?

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[JeremyFife]

Is there a minimum standard for a DAC's measured performance that once exceeded no person would be able to tell the difference anyway?
If so, is there any point in making a better measuring DAC if we can't hear the difference?

There is a long thread on this which starts well and is clear - and then goes off at tangents. Worth a read, especially of the early pages https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

( @ahofer beat me to it!)

 

[The Dunster]

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Cheers - Reading the thread now - exactly what I was looking for.

 

[Ken1951]

What insults?

The fact that we won't acknowledge their opinion as being facts and then bow to their superior experience.

 

[raif71]

Sure, but by that definition two identical preamps with their volume knobs ind different positions wil also "sound different", so where does that leave us?

Another rabbit hole ?

 

[raif71]

My question is: Why have more than one DAC in your system? I have the one, and I'm moving on....

In my system shown few posts back...the Topping Dx7 pro has the ESS9038Pro DAC while the other DAC is the Topping D70 Pro which has 2 AK4497 chip. In these implementation both at DAC mode, the sound of ESS will have punchy tight clinical sound while the AKM will have airier sound and more musical. Sometimes I just prefer the ESS, sometimes the AKM...just celebrate the differences, pure bliss .

 

[Soria Moria]

In these implementation both at DAC mode, the sound of ESS will have punchy tight clinical sound while the AKM will have airier sound and more musical

Any proof that they do? Those dacs should both be transparent.

 

[Killingbeans]

Another rabbit hole ?

Or maybe a need for separating functionality and characteristics when talking about the "sound" of things.

In these implementation both at DAC mode, the sound of ESS will have punchy tight clinical sound while the AKM will have airier sound and more musical.

Sounds like AKM's use of the word "velvet" has had the desired effect on your biases.

 

[raif71]

Any proof that they do? Those dacs should both be transparent.

Hahaha...just having fun with you all. The court may ignore my previous unfounded, no citation and clearly bias claims

 

[JustJones]

Hahaha...just having fun with you all. The court may ignore my previous unfounded, no citation and clearly bias claims

$50 fine for contempt of court. Payable to ASR.

 

[denzity]

This post originally started as a question about DACs but I thought it would be better to explain my current understanding first (question is at the end).

As an economist, I see four problems in the audiophile market which act against a potential buyer getting reliable information and value for money:

Informational Asymmetry​

The average buyer has listened to a limited number of DACs and audio equipment, often relying on specifications and reviews rather than extensive firsthand experience. Meanwhile, dealers and salespeople have access to a broader range of products and more in-depth knowledge. This creates a significant informational gap where sellers possess more information about the true performance and subtle differences between equipment than buyers do.

Principal-Agent Problem​

Salespeople, reviewers, and influencers (the agents) have incentives that do not align with the principals (consumers). For example, salespeople receive more money for selling higher-priced equipment, regardless of whether these models offer audible improvements. Similarly, reviewers may be incentivised through sponsorships or advertising revenue to favour certain brands or products, potentially compromising their objectivity.

Misaligned Incentives​

Many reviewers rely on partnerships with manufacturers for their income. This financial dependency can lead to biased reviews that emphasise perceived differences between DACs/equipment, even when objective measurements suggest minimal or no audible distinctions. Additionally, content creators may prioritise sensational claims to attract more viewers or subscribers, further distorting the perceived value and performance of various DACs.

Separately, reviewers and influencers make money from new content and are therefore incentivised to keep reviewing new gear, even if what's currently available is so good any further improvements would be inaudible to a human.

Placebo Effect & Status​

Some people may think they hear differences due to the placebo effect. They feel better with more expensive gear but it isn't an objective difference somebody else could hear. I've had multiple salespeople tell me 'high end' audio is about feeling. In addition, some people prefer more expensive gear for the status they think it gives them. Neither of these are things that I care about.

My question​

Is there any truth to well-engineered DACs sounding different from each other?

Specifically, in a well-treated room with optimal speaker and listener placement, is there any REAL difference in what you would hear between any of the high-scoring DACs Amir has tested?
From what I understand, once the SINAD is good enough the human ear wouldn't be able to tell any difference. Yet there are countless reviewers, salespeople, YouTubers, etc., who claim that (well-built) DACs do sound different.

Is this just a combination of outright lies, delusion and the problems stated above, or is there some truth to it? Could it be that a linear power supply, higher resolution internal clocks, or passive analog volume control (vs digital) make a difference but the measurements required to test the effect are omitted from the tests Amir does? Or could it be that some DAC manufacturers add their own 'colour' (or EQ) to the output that is discernible by the human ear but still allows it to perform well on a SINAD measurement?

TLDR: is all of what reviewers/salespeople say complete BS or can two DACs that both measure well have one that sounds better than the other?

 

[Purité Audio]

Complete bullshit.
Keith

 

[antcollinet]

Is there any truth to well-engineered DACs sounding different from each other?

No

But we already have a well used thread discussing this back and forth for 500+pages. You'll probably find these posts are moved to that thread by the Mods, because this topic only goes in one direction.

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Steven Holt]

While there may be slight differences in build - quality, there is absolutely no difference in sound quality and anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell a product, not tell the truth. At the end of the day, we are talking about a computer chip -- and that's it. PS I'm a former economics teacher (no PhD, sad to say), good to have a soulmate on board!

 

[antcollinet]

At the end of the day, we are talking about a computer chip

Plus a bunch of clock circuits, power supplies, and an analogue output stage - which is why they don't all measure exactly the same.

 

[AdamG]

No

But we already have a well used thread discussing this back and forth for 500+pages. You'll probably find these posts are moved to that thread by the Mods, because this topic only goes in one direction.

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Merged. Thank you @antcollinet .

 

[Steven Holt]

Plus a bunch of clock circuits, power supplies, and an analogue output stage - which is why they don't all measure exactly the same.

Point taken, thank you.

 

[xray]

From what I understand, once the SINAD is good enough the human ear wouldn't be able to tell any difference. Yet there are countless reviewers, salespeople, YouTubers, etc., who claim that (well-built) DACs do sound different.

If you really understand that then why do you need to ask the question? Or is it that you really don't understand or that you are actually disputing it?

 

[denzity]

If you really understand that then why do you need to ask the question? Or is it that you really don't understand or that you are actually disputing it?

I should have been clearer: this is my understanding from limited reading so far but it's not something I'm fully sure about.