• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

Thorsten Loesch

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2022
Messages
460
Likes
531
Location
Germany, now South East Asia (not China or SAR's)

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,771
Likes
37,637
Selective memory, it appears:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...o-industry-a-fraud.40206/page-25#post-1436700

You readily accept any number of extraordinary claims as fact, absent ANY proof and you repeat the claims.

Thor
That is not an honest representation of my thinking in that post, and no I didn't know this is what you were referring to. You seem to have this difficulty just saying things.

Beyond any of that you don't offer me any proof other than you say you did something, and I'm supposed to believe it. Just part of a smokescreen you prefer to hide within.
 

Mulder

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 2, 2020
Messages
641
Likes
888
Location
Gothenburg, Sweden
To me this suggests a hidden variable that is not quantified. That is not saying it cannot be quantified or is mystical, it is just outside current scopes. I might even have a rough idea and a hypothesis. In part Hawkesford's works points the way ("Fuzzy Distortion") I think. Do I want to work on it? Why not, if someone foots the bill.
One thing that makes me sceptical of your reasoning is that you previously, in another thread, claimed that devices that are preferred in blind tests are at the same time devices that have worse values when measuring already known variables. In other words, you imply that your supposed unknown variable would co-vary with relatively worse values of distortion and whatever other values of known variables that you believe must be held back for the "unknown variable" to blossom. Or, put differently, Topping (as you referred to earlier) sounds worse because by maximizing known variables it degrades the value of an unknown or hidden variable.
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
7,082
Likes
23,538
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
Publishing what we found would have been either ignored or been subject to a massive attack, requiring a long drawn out fight to defend the work.

It would likely have been vetted, as your claims would be considered exceptional, but isn't that what you'd expect and welcome? If your process was sound why worry about that? I only see a drawn out fight if your results couldn't be duplicated. It would make a lot of waves and if it turned out to be valid could really cement your name as someone to be taken seriously.

Without actual evidence...
 

pma

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
4,608
Likes
10,779
Location
Prague
supposed unknown variable would co-vary with relatively worse values of distortion and whatever other values of known variables that you believe must be held back for the "unknown variable" to blossom
There might be a kind of effect like “dithering” or masking of poor recordings (with technical faults) by higher noise level or a “hash” resulting from elevated noise bottom due to distortion components. Anyway, it is not desirable to design such components. Taking into account TL’s passion for tube amplification I think it might be the case.
 

Veri

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2018
Messages
9,599
Likes
12,041
That reminds me, I'm pretty sure my micro iFi BL did some kind of dithering that was always on and not mentioned anywhere:
While preparing to capture the GTO filter impulse response, I noticed that non-zero data was being sent to the DAC chip even with no input over USB. As it turns out, the firmware is truncating the samples to 18 bits with shaped dither.
 

Mulder

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 2, 2020
Messages
641
Likes
888
Location
Gothenburg, Sweden
There might be a kind of effect like “dithering” or masking of poor recordings (with technical faults) by higher noise level or a “hash” resulting from elevated noise bottom due to distortion components. Anyway, it is not desirable to design such components. Taking into account TL’s passion for tube amplification I think it might be the case.
But in that case is it really an unknown variable, or is it instead a question of determining how people perceive the impact of already known variables? Nelson Pass definitely claims that most people prefer amplifiers that provide a certain amount of distortion. But as far as I know, there is nothing mysterious about his amplifiers. He is fully aware that they function as "generators" for distortion.
 

pma

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
4,608
Likes
10,779
Location
Prague
I am not commenting on “unknown variable”, I am saying what IMO might be the case. Unknown variable is a smokescreen, as stated by @Blumlein 88 .
 

ahofer

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
5,045
Likes
9,153
Location
New York City
N YOUR MIND, showing such a result SHOULD help sales. That does not make it so.
Did they teach you this technique at prolix condescension school?

You may be right about this, but you haven’t offered anything of use here, and you don’t know how to have a normal conversation.

In your mind, you might say, you have provided evidence about audio science and equipment and tried to break up a cargo cult. But that does not make it so.

In your mind, you also left several times. But that didn’t happen either.

At long last, I’m going to put your bloviating and purposeful confusion on ignore.
 
Last edited:

Thorsten Loesch

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2022
Messages
460
Likes
531
Location
Germany, now South East Asia (not China or SAR's)
One thing that makes me sceptical of your reasoning is that you previously, in another thread, claimed that devices that are preferred in blind tests are at the same time devices that have worse values when measuring already known variables. In other words, you imply that your supposed unknown variable would co-vary with relatively worse values of distortion and whatever other values of known variables that you believe must be held back for the "unknown variable" to blossom. Or, put differently, Topping (as you referred to earlier) sounds worse because by maximizing known variables it degrades the value of an unknown or hidden variable.

Again, NO CLAIMS. Observations.

Background. A new "Flagship" product is designed. For whatever reasons extremely low THD & N (way beyond those necessary to avoid audible distortion of any kind covered by standard tests) is part of the requirements.

Meeting these requirements proved a challenge and took a lot of effort and fine tuning the circuit. It used single loop feedback, and a mix of increasing open loop gain and interstage distortion cancellation to get very low THD & N (aka a big SINAD number).

Later after modifications were made the SINAD number remained "respectable" and way below any possible audibility, but it ended up around 20dB worse than the original configuration. Measures included greater amount degeneration in individual stages, single pole output stage inclusive compensation instead of more "interesting" compensation schemes and removal of cancellation based distortion reduction.

Observation 1:

After this very low THD Headphone Amplifiers had multiple prototypes circulating, experienced listeners do not "like" the Headphone amplifier when listening. The reactions are universally negative. These are not blind tests, however consistent. Much less expensive and smaller, less well build headphone amplifiers including competitors products are ranked as superior in "good sound" by those listeners.

Observation 2:

Following the feedback in 1) a number further test units are build up and and different modifications of the circuit are realised. Externally these units look identical. A number of further tests suggests the unit with the highest THD & N was preferred to all others. This test unit is also preferred to all other "contenders". These are still informal listening tests, but they are blind insofar that listeners do not know by sight which unit is which. They just listen and make their own judgements and state preferences, additional comments on subjective sonics welcome. Again, a strong consusu was found as to which unit is PREFERRED across multiple independent listeners not in contact with each other, in the same room etc.

I'd like to add that this test is what in HiFi claim should be how reviewers should perform their tests, multiple identical boxes that may or may not be different inside and that they can play with however they want to their liking and report back, without knowing what they test.

Observation 3:

Once 1) and 2) suggested a correlation, a formal listening test was organised, multi-choice, blind, preference. This too again returned the same preference with overwhelming majority and statistic significance.

Result:

The preferred product was put into production.

Claim:

No claim is made.

Theory:

No theory or hypothesis is presented.

All of that has been covered repeatedly.

And that, to quote Forest Gump, is all I have to say about that.

Thor
 

Thorsten Loesch

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2022
Messages
460
Likes
531
Location
Germany, now South East Asia (not China or SAR's)
It would likely have been vetted, as your claims would be considered exceptional,

If no claims are made, how can they be exceptional?

Thor
 

pma

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
4,608
Likes
10,779
Location
Prague
Listeners may have been accustomed with the more distorted sound with lesser objective resolution. And you support them by offering a similar product - it is understandable from marketing point of view.

I obtained BT AB test results when people preferred technically worse sound as well - they preferred a sample with added empty groove noise vs original and also a tape recording vs original. Is it enough to design intentionally degraded products?
 

Thorsten Loesch

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2022
Messages
460
Likes
531
Location
Germany, now South East Asia (not China or SAR's)
While preparing to capture the GTO filter impulse response, I noticed that non-zero data was being sent to the DAC chip even with no input over USB. As it turns out, the firmware is truncating the samples to 18 bits with shaped dither.


Just a note. You either truncate, or you convert with dither. You CANNOT "truncate with dither".

You can 24 Bit truncate to 18 Bit and then apply dither to the few bits making th result less than 18 Bit, or you can convert 24 Bit to 18 Bit with dither. Mansr should of course know this, so let's presume he was a little casual about what he wrote.

That reminds me, I'm pretty sure my micro iFi BL did some kind of dithering that was always on and not mentioned anywhere:

That depends on the firmware version you loaded. There where three different ones.

One without anything MQA (on my insistence).

Another with MQA decoding for MQA and identical to non MQA if no MQA Stream was playing. A problem was that gapless playback of a mix of MQA and Non-MQA material was not possible.

A third one with MQA and a filter engine that used the filter coefficients I specified and was using the MQA DSP Engine "always on" even for non MQA material. This allowed gapless playback with MQA/Non-MQA material (e.g. from Tidal) and offered a filter based on one present in a different product with FPGA based digital filter and format conversion engine. I know that S & M (Sales and Marketing) decided to make it a feature, as opposed to a, not quite bugfix but a peculiarity of MQA. Complaintsover this to them please.

So the device did whatever the specific firmware you had loaded.

Thor
 

Thorsten Loesch

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2022
Messages
460
Likes
531
Location
Germany, now South East Asia (not China or SAR's)
Listeners may have been accustomed with the more distorted sound with lesser objective resolution. And you support them by offering a similar product - it is understandable from marketing point of view.

I obtained BT AB test results when people preferred technically worse sound as well - they preferred a sample with added empty groove noise vs original and also a tape recording vs original. Is it enough to design intentionally degraded products?

As noted, in both versions of the product harmonic distortion was low enough to be reliable inaudible, so not "intentionally degraded".

Hence why not offer the one more potential customers prefer? It's a free world, at least where I live and iFi sells and there is no need to, communist style, force people to listen to something they don't like. And you will not be able to force them anyway, they will buy something else.

Thor
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
16,054
Likes
36,446
Location
The Neitherlands
Some audiophiles prefer MP3 over the original when doing an AB test.
I don't think they will all prefer the original when it is not fast switching AB.

As said before... the inquisitive mind in me would have looked into what caused this found preference and learn from that and end the 'never ending debate'.

But... the audio(phile) industry depends on things remaining inexplicable yet possible to incorporate in their product.
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,511
Likes
25,350
Location
Alfred, NY
Listeners may have been accustomed with the more distorted sound with lesser objective resolution. And you support them by offering a similar product - it is understandable from marketing point of view.
Or it's just one more meaningless anecdote which gets more attention than it merits.
 

Thorsten Loesch

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2022
Messages
460
Likes
531
Location
Germany, now South East Asia (not China or SAR's)
One thing that makes me sceptical of your reasoning is that you previously, in another thread, claimed that devices that are preferred in blind tests are at the same time devices that have worse values when measuring already known variables. In other words, you imply that your supposed unknown variable would co-vary with relatively worse values of distortion and whatever other values of known variables that you believe must be held back for the "unknown variable" to blossom.

What you say seem reasonable as conclusion. I might draw the same one.

Or, put differently, Topping (as you referred to earlier) sounds worse because by maximizing known variables it degrades the value of an unknown or hidden variable.

I did not say anything about how Topping sounds etc.

I stated that if the poster liked the way the Topping he had tried sounded, he was unlikely to like the iFi product he mentioned.

That's like saying "if you love drinking Chardonay, you are unlikely to like a Rioja Tempranillo."

Thor
 

ahofer

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
5,045
Likes
9,153
Location
New York City
Some audiophiles prefer MP3 over the original when doing an AB test.
Yes, people often do prefer a modestly degraded signal, or a subtle noise floor (tape and vinyl), or maybe distortion on transient peaks (the latter seems to be @atmasphere 's point). There's no conundrum here, it's preference not fidelity, and as long as we don't confuse the two, or coddle certain audiophiles in their belief that the reduced fidelity is only worthwhile/can only be achieved if it's super expensive and accompanied by a lot of unscientific nonsense, then everything is OK.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom