Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Jmudrick]

That is not the way it works here. I have noted that many members take on this strict attitude of requiring proof for any passing statement; Regarding this thread on Dacs, how about you providing proof that 100 Dollar Dac sounds exactly the same as a 15,000 Dollar Dac.

You forgot the competently measured as audibly transparent part. No doubt $14k worth of added distortion and/or FR variance can make a DAC sound different.

 

[ahofer]

That is not the way it works here. I have noted that many members take on this strict attitude of requiring proof for any passing statement; Regarding this thread on Dacs, how about you providing proof that 100 Dollar Dac sounds exactly the same as a 15,000 Dollar Dac.

abx dac tests site:audiosciencereview.com at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

BLIND TEST Results Part 1: "Do digital audio players sound different playing 16/44.1 music?" - Devices Unblinded! (Plus unusual exuberance & bias in the media?)

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

BLIND TEST Results Part 3: "Do digital audio players sound different playing 16/44.1 music?" - Listener Results.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[Els]

That's not the way it works here. To make a statement without providing proof, and then expect someone else to provide for you is not good form ..... not at all. If you make an assertion, it is incumbent on you to provide the proof (or link).

Jim

Shiit Audio set up a comparison of their budget Dacs against they high price Dacs. Have you read the company owner's CV? They are highly qualified engineers with decades of experience in the audio business. What are your qualifications?

 

[Palladium]

Shiit Audio set up a comparison of their budget Dacs against they high price Dacs. Have you read the company owner's CV? They are highly qualified engineers with decades of experience in the audio business. What are your qualifications?

Now this is the funniest thing I read today, given their own history with ASR testing.

 

[ahofer]

What are your qualifications?

Newcomer, eh?

Redbook digital audio was designed specifically to work within the extreme known thresholds of human hearings. If DACs can be told apart, it is more likely that one is defective than any other explanation.

I have a canned response because newcomers make these sorts of unsupportable assertions all the time.

Welcome to ASR! You've made an unsupported assertion or a scientifically implausible claim that will cause most people in this science-oriented forum to react with skepticism (or scepticism if they are in the U.K.). Please don't take the reactions as overtly hostile - most of us are just frustrated with the many newcomers who have clearly come here just to "troll". Please do engage with the membership to find an objective, controlled method to support or discard your hypothesis. Our membership includes recovering subjectivists, many engineers/scientists, and several famous figures in the world of audio engineering research. Generally, they can cite scientific, controlled research to support their views. Most believe in the fallibility of human sighted judgement, and think blind testing and measurements are critical ingredients for assessing equipment contributions to sound quality. We'd love to have you, but if all you want is a) to fight or b) to have others cheerlead for your subjective views or anecdotal evidence, I'd suggest you will be happier elsewhere.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Redbook digital audio was designed specifically to work within the extreme known thresholds of human hearings. If DACs can be told apart, it is more likely that one is defective than any other explanation.

No one says all dacs sound the same - there already is a qualifier.

All dacs (here is the qualifier) that measure as audibly transparent - sound the same.

That is pretty much all of them in the blue and green sections of the chart here.

Ok, so which is it then?

 

[ahofer]

Ok, so which is it then?

Both. Not audibly transparent is defective.

See the Archimago test linked above.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Both. Not audibly transparent is defective.

See the Archimago test linked above.

So do you think virtually all of the original DACs in the 80s and many into the 90s and even some into the early part of the 2000s were defective?

 

[NikJi]

This was a statement made a few years ago by a reviewer in Stereophile. Is this a valid statement ? Now that everything is based on mesurements, do Dacs have a signature sound? Speakers do. That is why there are so many recipes, designers, and concepts. I choose my speakers by first looking at who designed it and his crudentials and goals. Could Dacs be viewed the same way? After all there are good dacs under 250 Dollars and some that costs over 20,000Dollars, functionality aside , what makes the différence?

Of course. All of my DACs sound different. Very different. For example:
Audioquest Dragon Black vs THX Onyx on my Sony MDR7506 headphones.
Onkyo A9150 built-in AK4452 vs Schiit Modi3 plugged into A9150.

There are differences simply because of they have been implemented. In theory the digital to analog should be the same but if DAC chips were so perfect then why AKM & ESS need to keep coming out with newer chips???

 

[NikJi]

"Of course." being a reply to which particular question or statement?

Jim

They sound different. Happy?

 

[ahofer]

So do you think virtually all of the original DACs in the 80s and many into the 90s and even some into the early part of the 2000s were defective?

From the chart, many are still defective. However, differences are pretty minor.

BLIND TEST Results Part 3: "Do digital audio players sound different playing 16/44.1 music?" - Listener Results.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[Mr. Widget]

From the chart, many are still defective. However, differences are pretty minor.

BLIND TEST Results Part 3: "Do digital audio players sound different playing 16/44.1 music?" - Listener Results.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

Then I guess you and I are on the same page... we just make different semantic choices.

 

[NikJi]

An omelette is an omelette. Same egg. Measurement wise same amount of fat, protein and whatever else not only before but also after it is cooked. Right?

 

[posvibes]

I really like the word "crudentials" as used by the OP in the opening post, that needs to go into the Oxford/Webster's, it is certainly going into my vocabulary, it has the touch of the John Lennon's.

 

[MAB]

Of course. All of my DACs sound different. Very different.

Not likely. Even the DAC that you got Audacity to record differently will not sound different to your ears, unless is it seriously broken.
Since you are new, let me re-drop the introductory quote from @ahofer

Welcome to ASR! You've made an unsupported assertion or a scientifically implausible claim that will cause most people in this science-oriented forum to react with skepticism (or scepticism if they are in the U.K.). Please don't take the reactions as overtly hostile - most of us are just frustrated with the many newcomers who have clearly come here just to "troll". Please do engage with the membership to find an objective, controlled method to support or discard your hypothesis. Our membership includes recovering subjectivists, many engineers/scientists, and several famous figures in the world of audio engineering research. Generally, they can cite scientific, controlled research to support their views. Most believe in the fallibility of human sighted judgement, and think blind testing and measurements are critical ingredients for assessing equipment contributions to sound quality. We'd love to have you, but if all you want is a) to fight or b) to have others cheerlead for your subjective views or anecdotal evidence, I'd suggest you will be happier elsewhere.

Before you try to anecdotally convince us that you can tell the differences between your DACs, read up about double-blind testing. And do a proper test, you will be shocked at what you can't hear.

p.s. The recording issue you pointed out here is likely caused by the Audacity recording settings. I just don't want you to get ahead of yourself and start trolling here.

 

[NikJi]

Not likely. Even the DAC that you got Audacity to record differently will not sound different to your ears, unless is it seriously broken.
Since you are new, let me re-drop the introductory quote from @ahofer


Before you try to anecdotally convince us that you can tell the differences between your DACs, read up about double-blind testing. And do a proper test, you will be shocked at what you can't hear.

p.s. The recording issue you pointed out here is likely caused by the Audacity recording settings. I just don't want you to get ahead of yourself and start trolling here.

If I challenge, I am a troll? Thanks. I will stop posting on this thread. You all can enjoy slapping each other. I am out.

 

[ahofer]

If I challenge, I am a troll? Thanks. I will stop posting on this thread. You all can enjoy slapping each other. I am out.

Well you did ask that daft question about chip design and make an assertion that you knew was unfounded.

 

[MAB]

If I challenge, I am a troll?

Only if you challenge without proof.

Thanks. I will stop posting on this thread. You all can enjoy slapping each other. I am out.

You should continue posting, especially if you are able to demonstrate you can tell the differences between DACs. That would be remarkable.
Just understand that if you wish to upend science, you do need evidence. And the title of this thread is so anti-evidence, and you just parroted the title, with no evidence. So, yeah.

 

[MAB]

And one more thing @NikJi
I don't go over to the Audiogon forum (for instance) and start an objectivist rant. I might try to be helpful: "those Bryston amps sure are reliable", "you might have a room mode... consider bass-traps", etc. But I don't go there to say "it's common knowledge that cable-lifters are a scam" or "your hearing actually isn't as good as you think it is", unless I expect to actually get slapped.

 

[Killingbeans]

That is not the way it works here. I have noted that many members take on this strict attitude of requiring proof for any passing statement; Regarding this thread on Dacs, how about you providing proof that 100 Dollar Dac sounds exactly the same as a 15,000 Dollar Dac.

If they both measure better than what human hearing can ever be expected to appreciate, I'd say the extraordinary claim is the one saying they don't sound the same.