Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[bkdc]

. And I know, I know, I'm sure you guys have heard all this before and when it comes to these equipment differences....prove it, right? Maybe it hasn't been done so much because it's not always the easiest thing to test? You need a pretty willing tester to make sure it is rigorous, do you not?

Equipment takes effort to test. I do hope people pouring money into audio equipment learn sooner rather than later what makes a difference in the audio chain. And the industry will certainly not sponsor tests which will hurt their sales. The piece of equipment that shows ready differences is the piece of equipment that introduces distortion orders of magnitude greater than DACS and amplifiers — the speakers.

It’s easy to ABX test different qualities of digital music files.

I read of someone who was expert and differentiating high quality MP3s from lossless files. This was a person with known measurable hearing loss at certain frequencies, and he could do it because he had an unusual ability to detect artifacts that normal ears could not hear.

 

[drmevo]

With the amount of $$$ at stake for a clear demonstrated preference between (pick your cable, DAC, whatever else that just needs to be functionally competent) and the breakthrough new nano-detail revealing thing, might there not be an incentive?



They sound like they'd make *excellent* test subjects!

It isn't trivial, but it isn't impossible to do a meaningful test with controls without expensive test equipment.

If there's anyone who could tell a difference, it's probably him.

That said, I've done some searching around the site for blind tests and what the results were and I just (unfortunately) read through much of this thread:

Blind test: we have a volunteer!!!

In the MQA thread I pointed out the OP had post a video where he made all kinds of observations about the sound of Schiit Magnius and how it was not a good product. Here it is if you want to (or can) watch it: The reviewer responded that he is ready to do such a test so I thought I create a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I have to say, it doesn't show the site in a favorable light, in my honest opinion. Here was a guy who was ready to put his money where his mouth was, and a quick reading of it really seems to indicate that ASR backed out and not the other way around.

I read of someone who was expert and differentiating high quality MP3s from lossless files. This was a person with known measurable hearing loss at certain frequencies, and he could do it because he had an unusual ability to detect artifacts that normal ears could not hear.

So it sounds like we somewhat agree, that at least some people are capable of picking out differences that they are not "supposed" to be able to hear?

 

[Rottmannash]

"ASR backed out and not the other way around"

Oh really? Did you read the same thread I did? Did the challenge even occur?

 

[Mnyb]

I have to admit, after getting into decent intro audio gear over the past year I was surprised to find that a standalone DAC was even a thing, and not only that, it's pretty much standard equipment among "audiophiles." Then, after reading reviews and watching videos describe how certain DACs such as those from Denafrips have a noticeably different sound, perhaps a more pleasant sound than the run-of-the mill DAC built-in to an integrated amp or receiver, I was ready to try one.

In all honestly, it's still difficult to accept the premise espoused here. I can certainly buy the argument for cables, that any decent-measuring cables will sound the same - especially power and digital cables. That makes sense to me. It's just REALLY odd, though, that so many people describe the same sorts of differences with some of these DACs- have they all really convinced each other? I know I'm about the millionth person to wonder this out loud here. I'd sure like to find out for myself without spending say $700-$800 and then having to go through a return process, and all that if it turns out I don't hear any difference.

You can expand this to any device with flat fr response ( inside human hearing ) very low noise and distortion.
Why would they sound different. DAC just happens to be where all our digital sources turns into an analog voltage.
Separate DAC has existed for a long time , but I think the renaissance for headphone hifi at your computer drives the sale of the modern DAC ? Many computers can’t drive headphones properly or are simply to noisy on their own.

 

[drmevo]

"ASR backed out and not the other way around"

Oh really? Did you read the same thread I did? Did the challenge even occur?

I believe I did, and no, it did not. The terms as originally agreed upon or at least outlined at the start of the thread changed drastically (by ASR), and the thread was shut down, by ASR. The testing subject was seemingly willing to go along with just about whatever ASR suggested in the beginning and then the whole discussion and parameters were reset some number of pages in - by ASR. By my quick reading of it, the reason for the challenge not occurring was much more on ASR than the test subject. I don’t care to rehash the whole thing here, but I’m somewhat an outsider looking in and that’s just how it seemed to me.

 

[Mart68]

I believe I did, and no, it did not. The terms as originally agreed upon or at least outlined at the start of the thread changed drastically (by ASR), and the thread was shut down, by ASR. The testing subject was seemingly willing to go along with just about whatever ASR suggested in the beginning and then the whole discussion and parameters were reset some number of pages in - by ASR. By my quick reading of it, the reason for the challenge not occurring was much more on ASR than the test subject. I don’t care to rehash the whole thing here, but I’m somewhat an outsider looking in and that’s just how it seemed to me.

IIRC the problem was finding someone suitably qualified and experienced who was prepared to travel there to oversee the test and ensure it was sufficiently rigorous.

 

[drmevo]

IIRC the problem was finding someone suitably qualified and experienced who was prepared to travel there to oversee the test and ensure it was sufficiently rigorous.

Then the challenge changed - post 21:

I am OK with the first pass being a camera on him while he takes a proper blind test. If the results are too good to be true, then we look at having witnesses there and such for a confirmation round. The threat of this follow up should keep him honest.

 

[Mart68]

Then the challenge changed - post 21:

I think that it later became apparent that a moderator would need to be present from the off, test subject has a financial incentive for passing.

I noticed a while back that he had acquired a switching box in order to do blind comparisons, I wish he would start using it as it would make his reviews a lot more useful. Any fool can hear differences when he knows which box he's listening to. I can do that myself at home so there's no added value in the sighted comparisons he currently offers.

 

[Jimbob54]

I think that it later became apparent that a moderator would need to be present from the off, test subject has a financial incentive for passing.

I noticed a while back that he had acquired a switching box in order to do blind comparisons, I wish he would start using it as it would make his reviews a lot more useful. Any fool can hear differences when he knows which box he's listening to. I can do that myself at home so there's no added value in the sighted comparisons he currently offers.

I agree. I've said before that his approach to his site content is both quite frustrating and ingenious . Presenting measurements to draw in the objective leaning audience but then the kind of comments in the reviews that Amir took issue with in the whole blind test debate that the subjective leaning crowd love to read.

He doesnt seem to even try and square the measurements with the listening comments that I have seen. And I suspect that is also the reason why he hasnt deployed the switch box- it would invalidate much if not all of the flowery waffle.

 

[drmevo]

I think that it later became apparent that a moderator would need to be present from the off, test subject has a financial incentive for passing.

If that's the case, couldn't the same be said for ASR, having a financial incentive for him failing?

I noticed a while back that he had acquired a switching box in order to do blind comparisons, I wish he would start using it as it would make his reviews a lot more useful. Any fool can hear differences when he knows which box he's listening to. I can do that myself at home so there's no added value in the sighted comparisons he currently offers.

I agree with you that he should use the switching box and that it would be both interesting and useful. I guess that whole thread I pointed to was just disappointing - lots of build-up, an enticing title...finally we get to see one of the YouTube reviewers so often criticized either prove his case or fail. The offer shouldn't have been made if there was not enough known to make it in good faith, IMO.

 

[maverickronin]

If that's the case, couldn't the same be said for ASR, having a financial incentive for him failing?

You notice how there are no ads here?

 

[Weeb Labs]

I agree. I've said before that his approach to his site content is both quite frustrating and ingenious . Presenting measurements to draw in the objective leaning audience but then the kind of comments in the reviews that Amir took issue with in the whole blind test debate that the subjective leaning crowd love to read.

He doesnt seem to even try and square the measurements with the listening comments that I have seen. And I suspect that is also the reason why he hasnt deployed the switch box- it would invalidate much if not all of the flowery waffle.

This has also been my impression of Golden's content. I wouldn't necessarily accuse him of dishonesty but it does seem to me that he is "playing both sides" (at least superficially), perhaps in hopes of attracting views from both demographics.

 

[Jimbob54]

This has also been my impression of Golden's content. I wouldn't necessarily accuse him of dishonesty but it does seem to me that he is "playing both sides" (at least superficially), perhaps in hopes of attracting views from both demographics.

I think that is blatantly what he is doing. I dont have any issues with it as I can choose to use or ignore as I see fit. Its no more or less honest than the reviewer that spends more time thinking of flowery language to describe what they hear than actually listening.

Whether it pays off for him in the longer run in terms of sponsorship/ revenues remains to be seen- Im also not sure what the deal is with the equipment he receives for review after the review is over but I havent dug too deep as to what his position on that is. It does seem that he is pitching content towards the higher end of mid range though.

 

[Mart68]

If that's the case, couldn't the same be said for ASR, having a financial incentive for him failing?


I agree with you that he should use the switching box and that it would be both interesting and useful. I guess that whole thread I pointed to was just disappointing - lots of build-up, an enticing title...finally we get to see one of the YouTube reviewers so often criticized either prove his case or fail. The offer shouldn't have been made if there was not enough known to make it in good faith, IMO.

well no-one lost their life so it's not really that big a deal.

I agree it's a shame it did not go ahead but I think that even if the issues had been resolved it still would not have happened since all concerned parties know what the outcome would be.

 

[Saponetto]

I know I will gather a lot of hatred on myself but I have to say...

My first thought looking at the (!) 165 pages of this thread is "well, it clearly seems that all DAC manufacturers got the right way to perpetuate their business by intentionally develop and build their product in so many different flavors in order to hook
all tastes".

Perhaps it's not a bad business approach considering how many ears populate this planet...

 

[dc655321]

If that's the case, couldn't the same be said for ASR, having a financial incentive for him failing?

What incentive are you referring to? Spite is free

 

[Jimbob54]

What incentive are you referring to? Spite is free

And so, so tasty

 

[drmevo]

What incentive are you referring to? Spite is free

Well, not paying out $1000 for one thing. I don't know the site (business?) well, but I would assume there is some sort of revenue stream to keep it going. Maybe fewer patrons would donate if they felt the underlying premise was flawed? I don't know.

 

[drmevo]

well no-one lost their life so it's not really that big a deal.

Come on, man, that's a cheap way to shut down conversation.

 

[ahofer]

I know I will gather a lot of hatred on myself but I have to say...

My first thought looking at the (!) 165 pages of this thread is "well, it clearly seems that all DAC manufacturers got the right way to perpetuate their business by intentionally develop and build their product in so many different flavors in order to hook
all tastes".

Perhaps it's not a bad business approach considering how many ears populate this planet...

I agree, actually. It’s just that the flavors have little or no..actual flavor. Far less difference than 50 brands of vanilla ice cream.

None of that means we shouldn’t be savvy consumers and invest our dollars where they will make a sonic improvement.