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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

raistlin65

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I can't prove to you that I hear difference between, say, amplifiers or even op amps :) but I have heard such differences. I can't explain to you why or how I hear these differences, (other than that I'm an attentive listener). If you are happier believing it's all my imagination, then be content.

No one doubts that you do, if you are doing sighted and/or non-properly volume leveled comparisons. Everyone is susceptible to perceptual biases. This is common accepted knowledge in psychology. And not just in audio perception, but visual preception as well.

Now if you are not doing properly volume leveled, blind testing, then what makes you think your experience is not just a perceptual bias? What are your grounds for ignoring that explanation?
 

Julf

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I can't prove to you that I hear difference between, say, amplifiers or even op amps :) but I have heard such differences.

If you can't prove it to us, how can you prove it to yourself?
 

Feanor

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If you can't prove it to us, how can you prove it to yourself?
A fair question. I can't prove it to myself either, but I am content that I hear differences. I can only say I hear differences consistently for the given components. When I'm listening to a new component, I often hear what I didn't expect to hear which tends to convince me, (without concrete proof), that I am hearing what is there.
 
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Hi,

Totally agree with this :
Rather than simply denying that subjective methods might produce valid results, the true scientists among the objectivist throne ought to be looking at scientific explanations for subjective results

And that is why I came here for...

You asked,

The answer to what you seek--or at least what you posted as an answer--is done by the medical folks. This includes audiologists, psychologists and other "ologists" in the medical field. Very interesting even with people understanding reality, the "western" countries have this odd believe that reality depends more on a vote than what is true reality. Other cultures that are not democratic tend not to understand "western logic" because...reality does not depend on what the law of averages provides.

How to sum up humanity? Well, we are emotional, biased creatures that think we are logical. Why does human bias exist and why it is coded inside all of us? Survival! Makes sense, think back when humans were on the snack food side of the food chain and we could throw rocks or sharpened sticks to defend ourselves against high speed four legged animals with teeth. Say a group of humans were hanging out near the mouth of the cave and they heard a noise in a tree--say 5 of the 6 ran back to the cave while the lone human was curious and went to see what that noise was. How long would the curious human last before he became lunch? Curiosity is what drives humanity forward but in the early days, it caused you to be brunch. Kids are curious by nature, just tell them there are creatures out in the woods that eat them (pick your creature!) If they believed in mystical, magical creatures then they would self-regulate even when you were distracted. This was all done to survive and you still are wired that way. You believe what you see, believe in your senses to stay alive.

To do the experiment correctly, it takes things far greater than double-blind tests yada, yada, yada. Our friendly medical researches wanted to know if a person believed something was "better" would they have a greater sense of happiness? Fire up the brain scanner and time to find out. What they did was have a chef make some form of food but they split it up between two table settings. One table had silk table cloth, fine china, fancy silverware etc. and the subjects were told it was made by a French chef with the finest in ingredients. When they ate the food they were scanned and their pleasure centers really lit up. Try it again but this time on paper plates, basic silverware, no tablecloth and the cook was a teenager using whatever ingredients he found. They ate the food and the brain scans prooved that they did not enjoy it as much as the "fancy" version. It was idenitical food.

Basically, if you BELIEVE it will taste, sound, feel better--it will! :D Pretty cool! This is why people will think water, wine or whatever tastes better by what they are told, what it costs and other factors even if it is identical. The reason you like Brand X or whatever when you see it VS Brand Y in a sighted test is because you have more pleasure with Brand X. It has nothing to do if X is better than Y, heck... X can be worse than Y but if you personally like X...you will enjoy X better. Congrats, you are a human! If Brand X appeals to your sense of style and Brand Y looks like trash--you will think and believe it will sound better--even if it don't. You will physically enjoy Brand X more and, if you don't mind paying for brain scans SSSS you can prove you get more enjoyment--you can PROVE it!

However, what you just have proven is akin to declaring the world's sexiest women/man/housepet or whatever. You are basically saying your sense of taste is reality--it is not. If you actually care about how frail the human senses are or how crazy our biases are--look up drug testing. They did such things like give people sugar pills and claim it did something---but told them one sugar pill cost 25 cents each while the other sugar pill cost $20.00 each--the third group got nothing. Guess what? The 20 dollar sugar pill created the most improved patient well being, the 25 cent sugar pill came in second and the people that recieved nothing did the poorest. In reality, all three groups received nothing at all but thanks to human biases, they had all sorts of positive results. This also applies to the color of the pills and how much the pill pusher engaged with the patient.

Enough science for you? Yeah, if you go on an audio forum or read magazines expecting medical advice--you are doing it wrong. Read up on human biases, psychology, medical testing and so on to get that answer. I did ONE blind test on amps, CD players and speakers years ago. Blew a weekend to get it right and learned that either my hearing sucked or I could not tell the difference between 0.03 and 0.05% distortion. Yep, could not tell three amps apart or three CD players apart--but I was able to tell the difference between speakers. Woohooo, ego restored! Ever since then, I get actual test results on equipment and go for the amp numbers of that blind test or better. Oddly enough, the medical folks (and my hearing tests) prove that age is not your friend for hearing accuracy so if I could not tell the difference a few decades ago, I won't be able to tell now. If I do somehow end up in an underground bunker that is so quiet I can hear the blood rushing through my ears, then I'll worry about Benchmark level amplifiers--but only then.

In summation, if you like something better and knowingly listen to it--you WILL enjoy it more! This is why double-blind testing chaps audiophile egos so much--you don't get that brain boost from sighting your favorite gadget. This is why the exact same beer tastes better on a nude beach in Greece than it does in my garage in the winter--the joys of being a human. Heck, I'll gladly drink warm generic beer swill on a nude beach in Greece than any beer in my garage--I embrace my bias! ;)

Now that you know, time to set the ego aside and admit you like what you like. I'm sure my tastes in potential mates are drastically different from what get you interested and I don't demand my tastes are better than yours. In audio gear, some people like cables the size of their leg, amps the size of window AC units, a rack of stuff from floor to ceiling and like watching plastic discs rotate. It makes them feel good as that is what they like. This does not mean in any way, shape or form that it is true!

This is why you have testing. The limits of human hearing are known, very well documented and tested for the last century by medical doctors. Now that they can repair hearing in deaf people, you might give them a little credit for understanding human hearing. Take those limits and apply them to actual test specifications of equipment and once the machines exceed the flesh bag human's ability to perceive it--you are good.

So my advice to peole is simply this, once you determine what specifications you need then get that but make sure it has the reliability, features and aesthetics you desire. Sure, it sounds like I'm a mouth breathing inbred fool to mention looks--but it matters in the human experience. I did not say it made it sound "better" I am saying spend the money to make things have a look that you don't mind taking up space in your life for the next 10 to 20 years. I built my own speakers in the garage, they are 3-way vertical line arrays with a total of 24 woofers, 42 midranges and 96 tweeters sitting on subs. My wife refuses to let those things in the house (on subs they are almost 8 feet tall) they are finished to handle heat/cold/beer, flying tools, sawdust and everything that happens in an active garage. They are not furniture grade but can handle any nastiness to stay clean. Why build such a monster? I wanted to play with line arrays and they look cool in the garage. Sure, they have very narrow vertical dispersion to prevent cement floor/ceiling bounce, they are very efficient, have a huge sound and have very even SPL from one foot to 12 feet back---AND they look cool! :D They are not the best for measurements and are not the best sounding speakers I've ever heard--because they can't in a garage. Spent a bunch of money to get them to work properly (took three tries and 17 months) but are a "fun" speaker--after two beers they sound great! :)

So there ya go--don't blame "performance" or perceived sound quality improvements as blame to waste staggering amounts of money on what amounts to audio jewelry--that is common. Denial is a horrible human trait--get out of that trap and learn the limits of human hearing, get accurate test results of gear, LEARN what specifications matter to you--and what don't. Only then should you be concerned with the other 20 things that matter be it reliability, serviceability, size, weight, efficiency, upgradability, scalability, cost and looks--you have to look at the thing so looks matter but know that going in.

I do enjoy a bunch of the audiophile gear though--time is limited in the human life so when I see such nonsense, I walk away and avoid those people. I don't have time to explain how digital signal work, why green magic marker on CDs does not work, why records are not better than digital and all the religious audio dogma--read a book! Once you learn how these things work, have a basic understanding of electricity, acoustics and the properties of speakers then it becomes much easier. Don't get in the trap of "specmanship" in that my audio gadget is better because it tests with better numbers. The big thing to learn is "does it matter". Any fool can just jump on better numbers as better just as any idiot with ears can claim to be a golden eared audiophile. The best thing you can do is learn "does it matter" and what matters in your room, your listening distance, your SPL demands and your particualar needs to make up for hearing damage you have. That part demands that YOU know what you want, need or desire--that is on you and why I don't "recommend" things. When asked by actual friends or family members--I reply with at least 3 choices. I NEVER tell them what to purchase specifically, they always have at least 3 choices and if I can.... 5 choices. This way I don't get blamed for any of their biases, aesthetic issues, WAF concerns or if chix dig it. OK, if they ask about speaker cable I throw them a spool of 12 guage--or 14 guage if they like.

Hope that helps--such is the trials and tribulations of being a fleshy human. Good luck! :)
 

SIY

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Hi,

Anyone a cognitive psychologist in here ?
I am not, but I made a living doing sensory testing in several different arenas.

Basic controls are basic. Deny them if you like, but that’s the difference between a physicist and an alien abductee. Here, we value physics and evidence. No controls, it’s not evidence.

This is not complicated.
 

SIY

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A fair question. I can't prove it to myself either, but I am content that I hear differences. I can only say I hear differences consistently for the given components. When I'm listening to a new component, I often hear what I didn't expect to hear which tends to convince me, (without concrete proof), that I am hearing what is there.
Are the aliens gray? Show me on the doll where they probed you.
 

Julf

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A fair question. I can't prove it to myself either, but I am content that I hear differences. I can only say I hear differences consistently for the given components. When I'm listening to a new component, I often hear what I didn't expect to hear which tends to convince me, (without concrete proof), that I am hearing what is there.

Expectation bias doesn't always work that way - your (subconscious) expectation might just be that there is a difference.

As an engineer, I have found that one of my most useful tools is something from Theory of Knowledge 101 - "how do I know what I think I know?"
 

Feanor

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No one doubts that you do, if you are doing sighted and/or non-properly volume leveled comparisons. Everyone is susceptible to perceptual biases. This is common accepted knowledge in psychology. And not just in audio perception, but visual preception as well.

Now if you are not doing properly volume leveled, blind testing, then what makes you think your experience is not just a perceptual bias? What are your grounds for ignoring that explanation?
Of course we are all subject to perceptual biases. But at least my conclusions are never based on a single A-B testing, (blind or otherwise), but on hours of listening. Typically I am very fussy to sound the same perceptual level but, granted, I don't measure the dB level. Furthermore my hours of listening are over several days at deliberately different listening levels.

Sorry, I will never prove to you that my perceptions are correctly. Nor will I prove it to myself either, but 50 years of critical listening make me content that I consistently hear real differences.

How about you? Have you ever thought you're hearing differences? Have you dismissed your perceptions because you haven't proven them by rigorous testing? Beware: you could end up listening to some terrible shit that way.
 

StefaanE

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Robin L

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Robin L

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Chippyboy

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There are two major schools of thought. One is that a system should sound "pleasing", "musical" or whatever, as in "coloring the music in the way I like". To me that is like saying "I want extra salt and ketchup on all my food, even in a Michelin star restaurant" or "I like everything shaded a bit pink, so I wear tinted glasses when I go to art exhibitions".

The other school believes "good" is defined as "accurate", as in reproducing the original signal with as little audible distortion, coloration or added noise as possible.
I hear what you say but IMO your analogies take the point too far. Only an idiot would want ketchup on the side of the plate at Le Gavroche. It's not idiotic to like a certain kind of sound.

And FWIW I am in your camp. I prefer accurate myself - I am a physicist and "accurate" appeals to me on a technical level. But I fully respect those who - for example - like tube amp sounds, and I don't consider them to be idiots, or even to be wrong.
 

q3cpma

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I hear what you say but IMO your analogies take the point too far. Only an idiot would want ketchup on the side of the plate at Le Gavroche. It's not idiotic to like a certain kind of sound.
I don't see any argument here, to me it's a perfectly accurate analogy. Some audiophiles even start eating only fried chicken, because they go well with their eternal ketchup.

Your post would vindicate those putting ketchup on everything; after all, it's their taste.
 

Chippyboy

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I don't see any argument here, to me it's a perfectly accurate analogy. Some audiophiles even start eating only fried chicken, because they go well with their eternal ketchup.

All your arguments would vindicate those putting ketchup on everything; after all, it's their taste.
There's a question of degree, mate.
 

Robin L

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You asked,

The answer to what you seek--or at least what you posted as an answer--is done by the medical folks. This includes audiologists, psychologists and other "ologists" in the medical field. Very interesting even with people understanding reality, the "western" countries have this odd believe that reality depends more on a vote than what is true reality. Other cultures that are not democratic tend not to understand "western logic" because...reality does not depend on what the law of averages provides.

How to sum up humanity? Well, we are emotional, biased creatures that think we are logical. Why does human bias exist and why it is coded inside all of us? Survival! Makes sense, think back when humans were on the snack food side of the food chain and we could throw rocks or sharpened sticks to defend ourselves against high speed four legged animals with teeth. Say a group of humans were hanging out near the mouth of the cave and they heard a noise in a tree--say 5 of the 6 ran back to the cave while the lone human was curious and went to see what that noise was. How long would the curious human last before he became lunch? Curiosity is what drives humanity forward but in the early days, it caused you to be brunch. Kids are curious by nature, just tell them there are creatures out in the woods that eat them (pick your creature!) If they believed in mystical, magical creatures then they would self-regulate even when you were distracted. This was all done to survive and you still are wired that way. You believe what you see, believe in your senses to stay alive.

To do the experiment correctly, it takes things far greater than double-blind tests yada, yada, yada. Our friendly medical researches wanted to know if a person believed something was "better" would they have a greater sense of happiness? Fire up the brain scanner and time to find out. What they did was have a chef make some form of food but they split it up between two table settings. One table had silk table cloth, fine china, fancy silverware etc. and the subjects were told it was made by a French chef with the finest in ingredients. When they ate the food they were scanned and their pleasure centers really lit up. Try it again but this time on paper plates, basic silverware, no tablecloth and the cook was a teenager using whatever ingredients he found. They ate the food and the brain scans prooved that they did not enjoy it as much as the "fancy" version. It was idenitical food.

Basically, if you BELIEVE it will taste, sound, feel better--it will! :D Pretty cool! This is why people will think water, wine or whatever tastes better by what they are told, what it costs and other factors even if it is identical. The reason you like Brand X or whatever when you see it VS Brand Y in a sighted test is because you have more pleasure with Brand X. It has nothing to do if X is better than Y, heck... X can be worse than Y but if you personally like X...you will enjoy X better. Congrats, you are a human! If Brand X appeals to your sense of style and Brand Y looks like trash--you will think and believe it will sound better--even if it don't. You will physically enjoy Brand X more and, if you don't mind paying for brain scans SSSS you can prove you get more enjoyment--you can PROVE it!

However, what you just have proven is akin to declaring the world's sexiest women/man/housepet or whatever. You are basically saying your sense of taste is reality--it is not. If you actually care about how frail the human senses are or how crazy our biases are--look up drug testing. They did such things like give people sugar pills and claim it did something---but told them one sugar pill cost 25 cents each while the other sugar pill cost $20.00 each--the third group got nothing. Guess what? The 20 dollar sugar pill created the most improved patient well being, the 25 cent sugar pill came in second and the people that recieved nothing did the poorest. In reality, all three groups received nothing at all but thanks to human biases, they had all sorts of positive results. This also applies to the color of the pills and how much the pill pusher engaged with the patient.

Enough science for you? Yeah, if you go on an audio forum or read magazines expecting medical advice--you are doing it wrong. Read up on human biases, psychology, medical testing and so on to get that answer. I did ONE blind test on amps, CD players and speakers years ago. Blew a weekend to get it right and learned that either my hearing sucked or I could not tell the difference between 0.03 and 0.05% distortion. Yep, could not tell three amps apart or three CD players apart--but I was able to tell the difference between speakers. Woohooo, ego restored! Ever since then, I get actual test results on equipment and go for the amp numbers of that blind test or better. Oddly enough, the medical folks (and my hearing tests) prove that age is not your friend for hearing accuracy so if I could not tell the difference a few decades ago, I won't be able to tell now. If I do somehow end up in an underground bunker that is so quiet I can hear the blood rushing through my ears, then I'll worry about Benchmark level amplifiers--but only then.

In summation, if you like something better and knowingly listen to it--you WILL enjoy it more! This is why double-blind testing chaps audiophile egos so much--you don't get that brain boost from sighting your favorite gadget. This is why the exact same beer tastes better on a nude beach in Greece than it does in my garage in the winter--the joys of being a human. Heck, I'll gladly drink warm generic beer swill on a nude beach in Greece than any beer in my garage--I embrace my bias! ;)

Now that you know, time to set the ego aside and admit you like what you like. I'm sure my tastes in potential mates are drastically different from what get you interested and I don't demand my tastes are better than yours. In audio gear, some people like cables the size of their leg, amps the size of window AC units, a rack of stuff from floor to ceiling and like watching plastic discs rotate. It makes them feel good as that is what they like. This does not mean in any way, shape or form that it is true!

This is why you have testing. The limits of human hearing are known, very well documented and tested for the last century by medical doctors. Now that they can repair hearing in deaf people, you might give them a little credit for understanding human hearing. Take those limits and apply them to actual test specifications of equipment and once the machines exceed the flesh bag human's ability to perceive it--you are good.

So my advice to peole is simply this, once you determine what specifications you need then get that but make sure it has the reliability, features and aesthetics you desire. Sure, it sounds like I'm a mouth breathing inbred fool to mention looks--but it matters in the human experience. I did not say it made it sound "better" I am saying spend the money to make things have a look that you don't mind taking up space in your life for the next 10 to 20 years. I built my own speakers in the garage, they are 3-way vertical line arrays with a total of 24 woofers, 42 midranges and 96 tweeters sitting on subs. My wife refuses to let those things in the house (on subs they are almost 8 feet tall) they are finished to handle heat/cold/beer, flying tools, sawdust and everything that happens in an active garage. They are not furniture grade but can handle any nastiness to stay clean. Why build such a monster? I wanted to play with line arrays and they look cool in the garage. Sure, they have very narrow vertical dispersion to prevent cement floor/ceiling bounce, they are very efficient, have a huge sound and have very even SPL from one foot to 12 feet back---AND they look cool! :D They are not the best for measurements and are not the best sounding speakers I've ever heard--because they can't in a garage. Spent a bunch of money to get them to work properly (took three tries and 17 months) but are a "fun" speaker--after two beers they sound great! :)

So there ya go--don't blame "performance" or perceived sound quality improvements as blame to waste staggering amounts of money on what amounts to audio jewelry--that is common. Denial is a horrible human trait--get out of that trap and learn the limits of human hearing, get accurate test results of gear, LEARN what specifications matter to you--and what don't. Only then should you be concerned with the other 20 things that matter be it reliability, serviceability, size, weight, efficiency, upgradability, scalability, cost and looks--you have to look at the thing so looks matter but know that going in.

I do enjoy a bunch of the audiophile gear though--time is limited in the human life so when I see such nonsense, I walk away and avoid those people. I don't have time to explain how digital signal work, why green magic marker on CDs does not work, why records are not better than digital and all the religious audio dogma--read a book! Once you learn how these things work, have a basic understanding of electricity, acoustics and the properties of speakers then it becomes much easier. Don't get in the trap of "specmanship" in that my audio gadget is better because it tests with better numbers. The big thing to learn is "does it matter". Any fool can just jump on better numbers as better just as any idiot with ears can claim to be a golden eared audiophile. The best thing you can do is learn "does it matter" and what matters in your room, your listening distance, your SPL demands and your particualar needs to make up for hearing damage you have. That part demands that YOU know what you want, need or desire--that is on you and why I don't "recommend" things. When asked by actual friends or family members--I reply with at least 3 choices. I NEVER tell them what to purchase specifically, they always have at least 3 choices and if I can.... 5 choices. This way I don't get blamed for any of their biases, aesthetic issues, WAF concerns or if chix dig it. OK, if they ask about speaker cable I throw them a spool of 12 guage--or 14 guage if they like.

Hope that helps--such is the trials and tribulations of being a fleshy human. Good luck! :)
Thank you for taking the time to write this moment of clarity
 

Chippyboy

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Use salt/pepper instead of ketchup then, if it hurts you to think that some people Do It Wrong (tm).
Hmmmmm. What a strange post. I specifically said I respect the opinions of people who like a certain kind of sound and absolutely do not feel any need to describe them as being "wrong".

I am not the bigoted one here, ironically.
 
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