Schiit Jotunheim 2 Review (DAC & Headphone Amp)

[don'ttrustauthority]

Because not everyone agrees that only measurements matter. There's a market. Schiit offers both 'well measuring' & 'voiced' products to their customers, and they are very transparent about it. It's called choice.

I'm relatively new to ASR but It seems that Schiit gets shit on a lot. What's the deal?

Well, wait a second. Everyone agrees that measurements matter. I think there are many people who assume you can hear differences in distortion below 0.1%. So without having done any testing to see if these differences are in fact audible, these hypocrites do exactly what the people they accuse of audiophoolery of doing. They make an unproven assumption.

The idea that the distortion in the Jot 2 means the Modius is better souding amplifier is laughable-- simply because a 1 kHz tone measures with inaudibly lower distortion ... at the very least it would seem to require more evidence.

 

[GGroch]

Denafrips Ares II
Detrimental effect. Hmmmm. . . Apparently it bests about 150 DACs tested on ASR
Blind test the Denafrips Ares II against the current top rated DAC and see if there's an audible difference.

Let me make sure I understand your argument. The $680 Ares measures just above average overall, and worse than many DACs costing 1/3 the price. Plus, you confirm there is no audible difference between it and cheaper DACs in blind tests, so R2R is valid?

R2R still exists only because some people are willing to pay for it. It is not new. I used the R2R story hundreds of times to upsell DACs in the early 80s. It is an easy concept to map out on a note pad, and if you do not really understand how DACs work it is a compelling story. Compelling stories are all you need to sell snake oil. In this case, Schiit has decided not to abandon their existing R2R customers and their alternative facts.

 

[Jimbob54]

Well, wait a second. Everyone agrees that measurements matter. I think there are many people who assume you can hear differences in distortion below 0.1%. So without having done any testing to see if these differences are in fact audible, these hypocrites do exactly what the people they accuse of audiophoolery of doing. They make an unproven assumption.

The idea that the distortion in the Jot 2 means the Modius is better souding amplifier is laughable-- simply because a 1 kHz tone measures with inaudibly lower distortion ... at the very least it would seem to require more evidence.

The Jot 2 is an infinitely better amp than the Modius. No arguments from anyone about that.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

So you propose we should blindly believe marketing material?

whoa, I'm not saying they are right or wrong. I am saying they are not being mysterious.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

The Jot 2 is an infinitely better amp than the Modius. No arguments from anyone about that.

That's a lie. Plenty of arguments in here about that.

 

[HiFidFan]

ADD: there is a long discussion of R2R here. As a result I changed "certain" to have a detrimental effect to "most likely", because some extremely expensive R2R Dacs measure OK.

So we agree that R-2R is not akin to audiophoolery like green markers and 'audiophile' stones/crystals, or $2k power cords. Correct?

Let me make sure I understand your argument. The $680 Ares measures just above average overall, and worse than many DACs costing 1/3 the price. Plus, you confirm there is no audible difference between it and cheaper DACs in blind tests, so R2R is valid?

My argument is simply that R-2R is legitimate, and properly implemented can measure well, and that it is not akin to green marker on Cds. You inject price which moves the goal posts on the discussion at hand. You leave out that the Ares also bests DACs that cost more. I also suggest that there would most likely be no audible difference between the Ares and the current DAC SINAD leader (Okto DAC8) that BTW, costs more.

R2R still exists only because some people are willing to pay for it. It is not new. I used the R2R story hundreds of times to upsell DACs in the early 80s. It is an easy concept to map out on a note pad, and if you do not really understand how DACs work it is a compelling story. Compelling stories are all you need to sell snake oil. In this case, Schiit has decided not to abandon their existing R2R customers and their alternative facts.

And Schiit also sells IC DAC's that measure very well. And they provide the specs, on the product page of their equipment (which is more than can be said for many other DAC manufacturers), so the customer can compare data. I'm not sure what your point is here. Where is the foolery?

Again, the discussion is whether R-2R is "audiophoolery". I don't see how it is, given that the circuitry can measure well and Schiit is transparent with their measurements. In that light i don't understand how they are trying to fool anyone.

 

[Jimbob54]

That's a lie. Plenty of arguments in here about that.

Want to think again about that one? You don't know Schiit.

How can anyone say the Modius is a better amp than the Jotunheim 2, or indeed any other headphone amplifier?

I'll add a for good measure.

 

[Veri]

That's a lie. Plenty of arguments in here about that.

(the joke was that the Modius is a DAC)

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

(the joke was that the Modius is a DAC)

I'm gonna stay with it and claim I meant these people are so insane they will in fact argue just that.

 

[HiFidFan]

That's a lie. Plenty of arguments in here about that.

See: Magnius

 

[Long Audio Beard]

I can overdrive all my headphones into distortion, with all my headphone amps, at loud volume, louder than I would want to listen. So perhaps some more info can be provided in that regard as otherwise the review makes this unit sound like it can not maintain clean amplification at a certain point of its volume curve? For example, it is possible to overdrive any driver with enough power.

It was not clarified if this was the "multibit" or their sigma delta module. This is an important factor and could impact the rest of the unit because I know that in some of the other Schitt DACs, that come with a choice between multibit and delta sigma, they do not have the same power supply circuitry depending on whether its multibit or DS.

Having worked with many DACs, some of these multibit and R2R DACs do present a more realistic playback of human voices IMO. I know that is not always a popular point of view here and I respect everyone's opinion, but that has been my personal experience and I will say that I did not expect to be drinking the kool aid especially after some costly DAC purchases I expected to be supreme and benchmark in all ways. Those have been supreme in measurements but just not in listening. SINAD to cover theoretical limits of redbook 16 bit audio is in the mid to high 90s. However, with access to a lot of music across multiple genres, really none use that full range due to recording limits, mixing, mastering, whatever. Not counting test tracks. So I am wondering if there is a much lower SINAD above which it won't make an audible difference for music to be keeping in mind, otherwise we could be pushing a form of snake oil in a sense unwittingly.

 

[Veri]

What are you talking about? How is mb mysterious magic? Have you read their explanation for why it's superior?

I have and it's bullshit. If you honestly believe their marketing materials prove anything about multi-bit superiority I really doubt you know much about the basics of digital to analog conversion or modern delta-sigma DACs. It's catering to naive audiophiles is what it is.

Makes a lot of sense actually. Nothing mysterious about it. Have you graduated elementary school, perhaps read the literature and remove your confusion.

Name-calling won't help your cause. And yes we read the blurb, my confusion is far from removed.

It was not clarified if this was the "multibit" or their sigma delta module.

Have you read the thread at all?

 

[Long Audio Beard]

Have you read the thread at all?

Lol not all yet but I will!

I take it you are not a fan of MB or R2R DACs, I wasn't either, but I heard some that changed my mind, but I am still open to new ideas. I don't think DS is necessarily better and I like the filter programming developed by Chord in particular. Digital filters has been a hobby of mine for a while going back to working on guitar digital effects.

 

[GGroch]

......So we agree that R-2R is not akin to audiophoolery like green markers and 'audiophile' stones/crystals, or $2k power cords. Correct?......Again, the discussion is whether R-2R is "audiophoolery". I don't see how it is, given that Schiit is transparent with the measurements. In that light i don't understand how they are trying to fool anyone.

In my view R2R is similar to green markers, crystals etc. in that it is a technology with no audible benefit. Perhaps their was in 1985, but digital audio decoding is now a solved thing. People certainly have the right to spend their money as they see fit, but they are paying more for a story makes them feel better.

That said, I agree with you totally that Schiit has changed their marketing approach towards their signature technologies, R2R and discrete circuits, in the last several years. Schiit has always presented itself as trustworthy and customer focused. Many of their early products measured poorly, and some sounded poorly. This was out of line with their brand image, and they changed. I still believe that charging $100 more for a multi-bit DAC module than an equally antiquated chip DAC is questionable, they no longer assert that it sounds better. As you say, they give people a choice.

It reminds me of the dilemma a political party might face if 40% of its followers believed strongly in alternative facts. While you might like to change direction....its not easy to do without a lot of pain.

 

[Long Audio Beard]

Let me make sure I understand your argument. The $680 Ares measures just above average overall, and worse than many DACs costing 1/3 the price. Plus, you confirm there is no audible difference between it and cheaper DACs in blind tests, so R2R is valid?

R2R still exists only because some people are willing to pay for it. It is not new. I used the R2R story hundreds of times to upsell DACs in the early 80s. It is an easy concept to map out on a note pad, and if you do not really understand how DACs work it is a compelling story. Compelling stories are all you need to sell snake oil. In this case, Schiit has decided not to abandon their existing R2R customers and their alternative facts.

The Ares II is actually over $1000

You do have to hear it to know what is going on with it, it does present a very lifelike playback compared to a lot of other DACs, it's not snake oil and the difference is quite noticeable. Everyone is entitled to their opinions

 

[HiFidFan]

In my view R2R is similar to green markers, crystals etc. in that it is a technology with no audible benefit. Perhaps their was in 1985, but digital audio decoding is now a solved thing. People certainly have the right to spend their money as they see fit, but they are paying more for a story makes them feel better.

That said, I agree with you totally that Schiit has changed their marketing approach towards their signature technologies, R2R and discrete circuits, in the last several years. Schiit has always presented itself as trustworthy and customer focused. Many of their early products measured poorly, and some sounded poorly. This was out of line with their brand image, and they changed. I still believe that charging $100 more for a multi-bit DAC module than an equally antiquated chip DAC is questionable, they no longer assert that it sounds better. As you say, they give people a choice.

It reminds me of the dilemma a political party might face if 40% of its followers believed strongly in alternative facts. While you might like to change direction....its not easy to do without a lot of pain.

Fair enough.

I ask one more question of you though. . .

In my view R2R is similar to green markers, crystals etc. in that it is a technology with no audible benefit.

But is there an audible difference?

 

[Jimbob54]

Fair enough.

I ask one more question of you though. . .


But is there an audible difference?

This is where things get contentious. You are right, if there is an audible difference you will always find some people that will prefer that difference and some that wont.

But very few people seem to want (understandably) to go through the arse ache of setting up something resembling proper level matched double blind tests to determine if they can actually reliably tell the difference. Trouble is , this leaves us susceptible to the sales pitch, flowery words and the self-perpetuating hype machine that is audio media. If I had just spent $300 on a multibit DAC board that the seller and hype machine declare to deliver much more x and better y then damn right I would hear it, all of it. Am I going to spend hours of mine and a patient friend's time to prove I imagined it?

The short version......proper testing or it never happened.

 

[Helicopter]

I can overdrive all my headphones into distortion, with all my headphone amps, at loud volume, louder than I would want to listen. So perhaps some more info can be provided in that regard as otherwise the review makes this unit sound like it can not maintain clean amplification at a certain point of its volume curve? For example, it is possible to overdrive any driver with enough power.

It was not clarified if this was the "multibit" or their sigma delta module. This is an important factor and could impact the rest of the unit because I know that in some of the other Schitt DACs, that come with a choice between multibit and delta sigma, they do not have the same power supply circuitry depending on whether its multibit or DS.

Having worked with many DACs, some of these multibit and R2R DACs do present a more realistic playback of human voices IMO. I know that is not always a popular point of view here and I respect everyone's opinion, but that has been my personal experience and I will say that I did not expect to be drinking the kool aid especially after some costly DAC purchases I expected to be supreme and benchmark in all ways. Those have been supreme in measurements but just not in listening. SINAD to cover theoretical limits of redbook 16 bit audio is in the mid to high 90s. However, with access to a lot of music across multiple genres, really none use that full range due to recording limits, mixing, mastering, whatever. Not counting test tracks. So I am wondering if there is a much lower SINAD above which it won't make an audible difference for music to be keeping in mind, otherwise we could be pushing a form of snake oil in a sense unwittingly.

With this amp, you get more distortion with lower impedance, but you don't hit the impedance 'knee' until after 10V on any of the impedance loads Amir tested. I suspect that virtually all audible distortion with this amp is caused by the headphones falling apart because they are overdriven. The exception would be something really inefficient, with low impedance, and low distortion, playing super loudly (, like Amir trying to get Ether CX to distort at high Volume). Dynamic headphone drivers will eventually distort audibly with clean power, but they shouldn't do it at reasonable volume.

^Edit: changed 10W to 10V

 

[GGroch]

.......But is there an audible difference?

1st, I appreciate this discussion because it pointed me towards this thread which I will read carefully in a bit. This post by solderdude is I think right on.

To paraphrase, a well executed R2R DAC is indistinguishable from a well executed DS DAC in blind tests. If a difference exists, it is because the manufacturer wanted to alter the sound, not because of the decoding technology. The thing is, in 2021 it costs almost nothing to make an audibly perfect DS DAC.

The R2R 'magic' happens inside the head and is based far more on cognitive bias than any minute difference in sound. With many audio components our biases overwhelm any objective evaluations, especially with something as perfect as DACs. Jimbob54 is right, no one wants to do blind tests that just prove how mistaken we are.

 

[HiFidFan]

This is where things get contentious. You are right, if there is an audible difference you will always find some people that will prefer that difference and some that wont.

But very few people seem to want (understandably) to go through the arse ache of setting up something resembling proper level matched double blind tests to determine if they can actually reliably tell the difference. Trouble is , this leaves us susceptible to the sales pitch, flowery words and the self-perpetuating hype machine that is audio media. If I had just spent $300 on a multibit DAC board that the seller and hype machine declare to deliver much more x and better y then damn right I would hear it, all of it. Am I going to spend hours of mine and a patient friend's time to prove I imagined it?

The short version......proper testing or it never happened.

Right, so the assumption is that 120 SINAD will sound better than 90 SINAD. Or that there is no audible difference. Which is it?

I've read threads where many agree that a $9 Apple dongle is audibly no different than a $350 Topping D30. Does this mean that Topping is ripping everyone off, audibly speaking?

Is the whole mission of ASR faulty in absence of blind ABX of every single product that is reviewed?