Roon 1.3 Adds DSP PEQ, Sonos, Multi-channel, and more

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Here's another $500+ audiophile player with an EQ. 6 bands baby!
https://www.danielhertz.com/master-class-software

Not really the same thing. First, it is not a player. I know you are thinking in terms of Room EQ, which both you and I consider indispensable. But, this is just a sophisticated tone control based on the ideas of Mark Levinson's Audio Palette. A good friend of mine still has the preamp version of the Levinson Audio Palette dating from quite a ways back.

So, the idea here is not mike measured linearity of room/speaker response. It is a digital version of multi-band tonality control for program source material done subjectively to the tastes determined by the tonmeister audiophile's golden ears, with quick and easy adjustments.

 

[dallasjustice]

I consider the "Master Class" as "the jokes on the customer" style player.

Of course, Roon is great and I use it. But the reviewer makes derogatory comments about HQP. It's obvious to me he doesn't know anything about HQP.

This is also another example of how much more feature rich $70 Jriver is than Roon. The only really important features Roon possesses is the beautiful UI and it's integration with Tidal. Otherwise it's way behind other options.

Not really the same thing. First, it is not a player. I know you are thinking in terms of Room EQ, which both you and I consider indispensable. But, this is just a sophisticated tone control based on the ideas of Mark Levinson's Audio Palette. A good friend of mine still has the preamp version of the Levinson Audio Palette dating from quite a ways back.

So, the idea here is not mike measured linearity of room/speaker response. It is a digital version of multi-band tonality control for program source material done subjectively to the tastes determined by the tonmeister audiophile's golden ears, with quick and easy adjustments.

 

[astr0b0y]

DAR has mentioned HQP in a number of his opinion pieces, I don't think he's being disparaging towards the result HQP provides, more towards the buggy one-way integration of the two applications and the clunky interface. I agree with him there but it wouldn't stop me using HQP. Roon with built in upsampling will though. Anyone wanna buy a HQP licence, as new condition?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Not really the same thing. First, it is not a player. I know you are thinking in terms of Room EQ, which both you and I consider indispensable. But, this is just a sophisticated tone control based on the ideas of Mark Levinson's Audio Palette.

And, fwiw, Mark Levinson's Audio Palette is really based on Dick Burwen's original Audio Palette. In fact, Mark Levinson's original preamp was based on Dick Burwen's audio modules (as was mine).

 

[watchnerd]

And, fwiw, Mark Levinson's Audio Palette is really based on Dick Burwen's original Audio Palette. In fact, Mark Levinson's original preamp was based on Dick Burwen's audio modules (as was mine).

So many knobs:

 

[Kal Rubinson]

So many knobs:

So little time.

 

[amirm]

So little time.

So much to do.

 

[astr0b0y]

HQPs author, Miska, has this to say in a CA discussion on Roon's nascent upsampling feature:

It also says "Many HQPlayer users report a smoother, richer sound when upsampling PCM to DSD at source. Soon you’ll be able to access the same from within Roon itself." which is not true. Just like with JRiver, Audirvana, etc. It is not the same. It may be similar but to what extent is different question.

Just like with PCM, there's DSD and there's DSD, it all depends on how it came to be. Having same format doesn't mean having same thing.

To put it simplified 50% of the performance comes from the upsampling filter design and another 50% comes from the modulator design.

I'm sure he'll be defending his corner but how much of his comment is accurate?

 

[watchnerd]

HQPs author, Miska, has this to say in a CA discussion on Roon's nascent upsampling feature:

It also says "Many HQPlayer users report a smoother, richer sound when upsampling PCM to DSD at source. Soon you’ll be able to access the same from within Roon itself." which is not true. Just like with JRiver, Audirvana, etc. It is not the same. It may be similar but to what extent is different question.

Just like with PCM, there's DSD and there's DSD, it all depends on how it came to be. Having same format doesn't mean having same thing.

To put it simplified 50% of the performance comes from the upsampling filter design and another 50% comes from the modulator design.

I'm sure he'll be defending his corner but how much of his comment is accurate?

I don't even agree with this premise..."just like with PCM"...what's just like with PCM?

That high resolution vs Redbook is indistinguishable in a DBT test?

 

[astr0b0y]

I think he's saying that not all methods of upsampling are created equal and therefore the resulting PCM or DSD between what Roon may output vs what HQP may output could be different. The slant would be that Roons may not be as good as his.

 

[watchnerd]

I think he's saying that not all methods of upsampling are created equal and therefore the resulting PCM or DSD between what Roon may output vs what HQP may output could be different. The slant would be that Roons may not be as good as his.

That seems to be his intent, yes.

But he also provided no evidence. So it's just his say-so.

Also, given Roon 1.3 isn't out, I have no idea how we could actually even assess it.

To me it looks like vested interest protecting itself.

 

[dallasjustice]

That seems to be his intent, yes.

But he also provided no evidence. So it's just his say-so.

Also, given Roon 1.3 isn't out, I have no idea how we could actually even assess it.

To me it looks like vested interest protecting itself.

He's shown measurements before on CA. You can see that the impulse is different depending on the filter used. Whether someone can really perceive the difference (JND) and whether someone actually prefers one type of filter over another is very controversial and I've never seen any good research which demonstrates that any particular filter (eg. minimum phase vs FIR) is preferred over the other. I think archimago did a test and it seemed to be inconclusive, IIRC.

Hqplayer works in the background when used with Roon. It offers a full mixer, convolution filters up to the highest sample rates, conversion to any sample rate with a variety of options. HQP also offer more basic settings for delays in MCH setups. For my purposes, its everything I'd want except a decent UI. Roon is a great UI. So, the two of them together are the ultimate combo. I've also used Acourate convolver and Jriver's convolver. I think Acourate is my favorite convolver but the integration with Roon is not as nice as HQplayer's interface with Roon.

 

[Sal1950]

Most excellent. They read my mind on this one as I was going to post it as a suggestion to their forum:

2. Bought a hi-res download from HDTracks? Want to browse all of the downloaded folder’s .jpg-d cover art or .pdf-sealed liner notes? Roon 1.3’s artwork gallery browser will allow us to scroll through a folder’s numerous cover art files without ever leaving the app. The tag editor and file location browser has also been overhauled. Organised folders have been zapped.

It was silly to have the metadata available as part of download yet Roon saying it could not find it.

OT Rant, sorry.
Don't know which HDTracks download referenced but for the large part HDTracks supplies nothing beyond the basic music files, not even cover art. Considering the $ charged for these downloads you should minimally be getting everything that was available on the CD or LP
Another High End Rip Off.
End Rant

 

[watchnerd]

I've never seen any good research which demonstrates that any particular filter (eg. minimum phase vs FIR) is preferred over the other.

Nor have I.

And if his secret sauce is just having some canned versions of common filters with particular presets, well, I can do that for free using alsa on Roon endpoints running Linux.

 

[amirm]

Just like with PCM, there's DSD and there's DSD, it all depends on how it came to be. Having same format doesn't mean having same thing.

He is making a good argument but with one major exception: if the improvement people "hear" is due to psychological factor or assuming DSD is better, then any conversion algorithm will have the same result as HQPlayer. Another exception would be if the DSD output of a DAC is simply different than its PCM. That would again result in the same thing as long as the output is DSD.

 

[amirm]

OT Rant, sorry.
Don't know which HDTracks download referenced but for the large part HDTracks supplies nothing beyond the basic music files, not even cover art. Considering the $ charged for these downloads you should minimally be getting everything that was available on the CD or LP
Another High End Rip Off.
End Rant

I just went through a dozen of my HDTracks album in sequence in my folder and all of them had .pdf for the album. Maybe this is a later addition than when you tried them?

 

[watchnerd]

He is making a good argument but with one major exception: if the improvement people "hear" is due to psychological factor or assuming DSD is better, then any conversion algorithm will have the same result as HQPlayer. Another exception would be if the DSD output of a DAC is simply different than its PCM. That would again result in the same thing as long as the output is DSD.

SoX has already been tested to be audibly transparent for SRC of DSD to PCM.

Any "improvement" beyond transparency would be surprising and suspicious.

 

[amirm]

The DSD conversion to PCM was audibly different due to volume differences in Roon as I mentioned in another thread. In that regard we need to test HQPlayer to see if it also imparts such volume differences. Has this been done?

 

[Sal1950]

I just went through a dozen of my HDTracks album in sequence in my folder and all of them had .pdf for the album. Maybe this is a later addition than when you tried them?

I just quick checked HDTracks, of the 7 albums highlighted in Select Rock list, 5 have this note in the About tab
"THIS ALBUM DOWNLOAD FEATURES HIGH RESOLUTION COVER ART ONLY. LINER NOTES ARE NOT AVAILABLE"
The other 2 say nothing?

I have 17 HDTrack albums.
Only 4 have a pdf that contain any liner notes

1. The Animals
2. ELP - Brain Salad
3. James Taylor - Before This World
4. Willie Nelson - To All The Girls

7 have a pdf that contains only a front cover photo
The rest have nothing. I had to populate the meta data with art and whatever else I could find on the internet manually. They may be older downloads, don't remember, maybe they're doing a bit better with front cover art now but-----------
Heck, my Clementine player would search out front cover art automatically.
A pitiful track record for a company charging $20^ for a premium music file.

 

[amirm]

You are right in that some of my .pdf files are just album cover too. But the rest (about 2/3) have extensive text in them besides the album cover. Even picking up the album cover would be cool as I am tired of seeing so many albums in my library with Roon's default album cover. This especially happens with vertically integrated labels which produce their own music and distribute it.