Review and Measurements of Topping D10 DAC

[amirm]

So difficult to fathom that kind of interference. Very strange.

 

[Hemicrusher]

Update on my issue with the D10 malfunctioning when turning off amp:

As I mentioned previously the D10 sometimes malfunctions (relay clicks, sometimes crashes) when I turn off my headphone amp or speaker receiver. At first I thought there was current going back into the RCA output from the receiver but it seems that even if they aren't connected in any way to the D10 it still happens. So I guess it's not coming from the RCA output but from the USB. Since I have everything connected to the same power strip, this is most probably current/noise coming from the receiver -> computer -> USB connection -> D10.

I'll try connecting the the computer and the amp to separate power outlets to see if it fixes it.

I have my PC, DAC, Amp, external harddrives, monitors etc attached to a UPS. Turning the amp off and on does not affect the D10.

 

[Ron Texas]

There are a lot of ways to crash a USB DAC. Oddball changes in output format, changes from WASAPI to Direct Sound, and so on. If all it takes is avoiding a certain sequence of events or restarting the DAC, I don't think it's a big deal. I have managed to crash my Audioengine D1 and Grace M9xx. It doesn't happen enough to be a problem. What I have found is things are better behaved when using ASIO than Win 10 native USB 2.0. No difference in sound quality that I can tell, but fewer problems.

Some are having problems with what appears to be ground loops. Perhaps if you never had them with other USB powered DAC's you will not have them with the D10.

 

[memphiskat]

I got the D10 about a month ago from the latest Massdrop. No problems at all with it so far. Windows 10 with Foobar2000. Downloaded and installed the Topping drivers. In Foobar I have been using "ASIO : Topping USB Audio Device" under Output and Device. D10 always displays proper sampling rate, right now using Sox resampler/4x upsample and 96K file is showing 384 on Topping display and in Topping USB Audio Device Control Panel window.

When I tried playing a DSD .dff file I had to switch to "DSD : ASIO : Topping Audio Device" under Output and then under Tools/SACD I changed Output to DSD and then .dff files played fine and display indicated proper DSD rate of the file (my first DSD capable DAC so Output was previously set to PCM).

Question: When I played a standard PCM file while still using "DSD : ASIO : Topping Audio Device" it played fine and display showed proper PCM sampling rate. Is there any reason not to use this setting then when playing PCM files?

Just passing along my experience so far with the device. Sound quality seems excellent, but I have never had any highend DACs to compare it to. I previously have used a FIIO Q1 and some proaudio USB audio devices (Maudio, Tascam). I have the D10 connected to an older Adcom preamp, Adcom amp, and JMLab speakers. I have experienced no issues with the D10 shutting down.

 

[Ron Texas]

Question: When I played a standard PCM file while still using "DSD : ASIO : Topping Audio Device" it played fine and display showed proper PCM sampling rate. Is there any reason not to use this setting then when playing PCM files?

I have never detected any difference in SQ when using DSD: ASIO or DSD: WASAPI to playback PCM.

How are you controlling volume when playing DSD?

 

[Krunok]

Question: When I played a standard PCM file while still using "DSD : ASIO : Topping Audio Device" it played fine and display showed proper PCM sampling rate. Is there any reason not to use this setting then when playing PCM files?

No reason at all - just set it to "DSD : ASIO : Topping Audio Device" and it will play both, PCM and DSD.

 

[memphiskat]

I have never detected any difference in SQ when using DSD: ASIO or DSD: WASAPI to playback PCM.

How are you controlling volume when playing DSD?

I always use my preamps volume control. I tried the slider in Foobar and it makes no change when playing DSD. I also tried in the Topping Control panel under Volume tab and those controls mute audio as soon as you adjust them below 100%. I think this is normal for DSD.

 

[Krunok]

I think this is normal for DSD.

It is.

 

[Ron Texas]

I always use my preamps volume control. I tried the slider in Foobar and it makes no change when playing DSD. I also tried in the Topping Control panel under Volume tab and those controls mute audio as soon as you adjust them below 100%. I think this is normal for DSD.

Thanks. There is a way to access the internal volume control of the D10 using Volumino. I have wondered if this could be done with JRiver or even if it works on DSD with Volumino. Currently, I convert DSD to PCM @352.8 for easy volume control and use of DSP's. I doubt there is any SQ improvement sending DSD to the DAC.

 

[Krunok]

I have wondered if this could be done with JRiver

Volume control of D10 can be controlled with Jriver.

or even if it works on DSD with Volumino.

It doesn't. Controlling volume of DSD is tricky.

Currently, I convert DSD to PCM @352.8 for easy volume control.

I do the same and to me it sounds the same as DSD.

 

[Timbo2]

For those experiencing resets and lock ups with the D10 I may have found a way for Amir to test it.

I normally run my D10 with an O2 amp on battery. Today I happened to have plugged into the wall wart. I can reliably reset the D10 and make it cycle the relay by simply pulling the AC adapter out of the socket with the O2 in off position.

The trick is to make sure you have the O2 on at least once before you pull the adapter. I’m assuming there is some residual capacitance that is discharged when you pull the plug and it is large enough to reset or lock up the D10.

Since he is currently reviewing the O2 perhaps he could put a scope on it and let us know what happens when you plug and unplug the AC adapter on the output.

 

[DWPress]

Me again. Well last night I had no sound output at all and tried all sorts of things to get it back - different preamp selection showed there was no problem with that gear or my miniDSP 2x8 (which was a great fear). Today I swapped it out for the Schiit Modi2U and all is fine. I'll experiment with other computers again when I have time but the conclusion right now is my D10 is fully to blame but had been working fine for a couple weeks.

2013 27" iMac, OS 10.13.4 > DAC > PS Audio 6.2 pre > miniDSP > amps.... At a loss here.

 

[Hemicrusher]

I have never detected any difference in SQ when using DSD: ASIO or DSD: WASAPI to playback PCM.

How are you controlling volume when playing DSD?

With the Amp

 

[amirm]

For those experiencing resets and lock ups with the D10 I may have found a way for Amir to test it.

I normally run my D10 with an O2 amp on battery. Today I happened to have plugged into the wall wart. I can reliably reset the D10 and make it cycle the relay by simply pulling the AC adapter out of the socket with the O2 in off position.

The trick is to make sure you have the O2 on at least once before you pull the adapter. I’m assuming there is some residual capacitance that is discharged when you pull the plug and it is large enough to reset or lock up the D10.

Since he is currently reviewing the O2 perhaps he could put a scope on it and let us know what happens when you plug and unplug the AC adapter on the output.

Great job. I managed to reproduce that and instrument it.

Here is what the O2 is *backfeeding* into its input when you pull out the power supply:

The worst case spike is a little hard to see but I put the cursor on it (dashed horizontal lines) and it 16 volts!!! The amount changes from run to run but it is always many volts.

Given this, the fault is in the O2. The output of the DAC should have not transients fed back to it. This is likely feeding into the power supply rails of the Topping D10, causing the processor to get screwed up. Yes, that is a technical term.

I guess Topping could put mitigation for this also but seems to me this is an O2 problem.

 

[Timbo2]

Great job. I managed to reproduce that and instrument it.

Here is what the O2 is *backfeeding* into its input when you pull out the power supply:

View attachment 14539

The worst case spike is a little hard to see but I put the cursor on it (dashed horizontal lines) and it 16 volts!!! The amount changes from run to run but it is always many volts.

Given this, the fault is in the O2. The output of the DAC should have not transients fed back to it. This is likely feeding into the power supply rails of the Topping D10, causing the processor to get screwed up. Yes, that is a technical term.

I guess Topping could put mitigation for this also but seems to me this is an O2 problem.

I’d agree this is more an O2 issue. I think we can add another deficiency to the design here. Unfortunately, it would seem that the D10 is also especially sensitive here as others have the lock up issue on other hardware. So Topping should probably share some blame.

Thanks so much for checking it out!

 

[Hemicrusher]

Would Topping be able to fix this issue with a firmware update?

 

[Ron Texas]

I am a bit concerned about the amplifier feedback issue. Two members have reported it with different headphone amps. I might go for a D30 just because of stability.

 

[amirm]

Would Topping be able to fix this issue with a firmware update?

Not likely. It is an analog, electrical problem.

 

[Timbo2]

I am a bit concerned about the amplifier feedback issue. Two members have reported it with different headphone amps. I might go for a D30 just because of stability.

My D10 has never locked up. But I can get it to reset with static to the RCA outputs occasionally or reliably reset by the process I described. But if you are keeping things plugged in, both the amp and the outputs I haven’t had any issues.

I do feel the D10 should be a bit more robust here, however.

 

[douteiful]

Thank you for the information! This has led me to do some more testing.
So indeed it is caused by current coming into the RCA outputs, not the USB (my bad! I'll edit my previous post to reflect this).

I tried 3 cases with video:

Case 1: I turn off the receiver (off-screen) with the D10 output connected to the receiver. It clicks.
https://streamable.com/yj6hr
Case 2: I turn off the receiver (off-screen) with the D10 output connected to a turned off O2. It clicks. Notice how I don't even touch the O2.
https://streamable.com/18hc1
Case 3: I turn off the receiver (off-screen) with the D10 output not connected. Nothing happens.
https://streamable.com/xi92f

Case 1 is most possibly caused by current coming from the receiver, but Case 2 is funky because I guess the current from the receiver is getting into the O2 through the wall socket somehow and coming into the D10 output, making the relay click.

I don't know if it could damage the D10 (it doesn't lock up, it's just the relay and screen that lights up) but for now I'm disconnecting the RCA before turning off anything just in case.