Review and Measurements of Marantz AV8805 AV Processor

[LTig]

My point us simple - we can not rely on measurements, performed at 0 dB FS. They are too close to the level of clipping

Just the opposite - we have to measure at 0 dBFS because there are thousands of CDs which reach this level regularly. And since intersample levels can reach + 3 dBFS both the digital processing before the final DA-stage as the analog electronics after the DA stage must be able to handle +3 dBFS levels. Many DACs prove that they can do this, some can't. Therefore it makes sense to perform also tests with maximum possible intersample values, as Nielsen did.

What you seem to miss is that when a sinus of 0 dBFS is calculated (for testing a DAC) this signal has no higher intersample values.

and even a good “passing” unit can give us bad results due to different type of fluctuations. We also can not approximate such results for the same product, because tolerance in components can make it either passing or not.

This is plain wrong. Fluctuations of the reference voltage lead to corresponding changes in the analog output voltage (or current) of the DAC. The analog stages afterwards must be able to handle this, otherwise their design is broken.

Nielsen proved that 7 tested by him players perform really badly being tested at 0 dB FS. Are they all “bad players”? What if the same player will have enough room (again due to tolerance in components, for example) and pass?

You have to read the article again. Nielsen proved that DACs tested with 0 dBFS+ signals clipped. The whole article speaks about signals higher than 0 dBFS (hence the +), see the 3rd chapter of the abstract on page 1:

This paper examines the sonic consequences when 0dBFS+ signals are reproduced in typical consumer equipment. The performance of a variety of domestic CD players exposed to such signals are presented and evaluated.​

 

[ProFan]

Guys, I an tired to argue. Count it as amirm said “you lost this battle”, period.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Just the opposite - we have to measure at 0 dBFS because there are thousands of CDs which reach this level regularly.

This is absolutely the key to DACs which work and those that are inadequate IMO.
For me almost all DACs have adequately low noise and distortion but any that can't handle 0dB signals, which happen all the time in pop music, are useless for listening to music, which doesn't require all the potential of CD but definitely must handle signals at 0dB properly

 

[peng]

Yes, I do.
Otherwise, why do we need to measure anything at all, why good parts like PCM1704U-K become to be obsolete, why guys from dCS designed their own Ring DAC, which sounds and measures almost perfectly?
DBT has to be performed properly though.

Because we can. Better specs, especially if verified by measurements, do make a lot of people feel good, and enabling them to let Placebo/expectation bias work their wonder.

 

[peng]

I am not sure if it even worth to try SP4 - it uses 16 channel AD DAC chip ADAU1966, which has only -98dB THD+N per data sheet (rev E) - almost resolution of a compact disk (or a budget codec).

For comparison Marantz 8805 uses AK4490, which has -112dB THD+N.
It is 14dB difference or 5 times in levels. Then all those distortions will be amplified by a power amp by 23-29dB.
Isn’t it bad to have 5 times less distortions for 1/3 of the price?

SP4 with such price tag shall use top notch DAC chips as we see in good 2-channel DACs - for example AK4497 (for “velvet sound”) or ESS9038PRO for superior transparency and details.

Keep in mind the DAC chip is unlikely to be the weak link, relative to the preamp/volume control upstream, and the HDAM stage downstream.

 

[donttrustgoats]

When loyal owners of the products Amir has tested try to argue with him.

 

[Sal1950]

The end of real competition in the low/mid receiver, avr, and pre-pro markets?
Sound United is purchasing Onkyo Corp, parent company of Onkyo, Pioneer, Pioneer Elite, and Integra.
SU already has Denon, Polk, Marantz, Definitive Technology, HEOS, Classé, and Boston Acoustics.
https://www.dealerscope.com/article...utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2019-05-14

 

[amirm]

The end of real competition in the low/mid receiver, avr, and pre-pro markets?
Sound United is purchasing Onkyo Corp, parent company of Onkyo, Pioneer, Pioneer Elite, and Integra.
SU already has Denon, Polk, Marantz, Definitive Technology, HEOS, Classé, and Boston Acoustics.
https://www.dealerscope.com/article...utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2019-05-14

Saw that this morning. Looks like the future is like car business with multiple brands on essentially same unit....

 

[Sal1950]

Saw that this morning. Looks like the future is like car business with multiple brands on essentially same unit....

And the same owners controlling multiple dealerships throughout a city, both for same brand and varied brands.

 

[Blumlein 88]

The end of real competition in the low/mid receiver, avr, and pre-pro markets?
Sound United is purchasing Onkyo Corp, parent company of Onkyo, Pioneer, Pioneer Elite, and Integra.
SU already has Denon, Polk, Marantz, Definitive Technology, HEOS, Classé, and Boston Acoustics.
https://www.dealerscope.com/article...utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2019-05-14

Well we need a fix the Dolby grip on AV use via hardware. We need software that can implement all the various format decoding and send it properly to any multi-channel pro dac. Then I could best the performance of these $5k pre/pros for about $500. Plus you'd only need software updates. As it stands every few years if you want the new formats you need new hardware to get it. Quite the shame since said hardware has usually been marginal and appears if anything going to get worse.

 

[Sal1950]

As it stands every few years if you want the new formats you need new hardware to get it.

I know I don't have to mention there's a method to that madness. LOL

 

[LTig]

The end of real competition in the low/mid receiver, avr, and pre-pro markets?
Sound United is purchasing Onkyo Corp, parent company of Onkyo, Pioneer, Pioneer Elite, and Integra.
SU already has Denon, Polk, Marantz, Definitive Technology, HEOS, Classé, and Boston Acoustics.

Yep, this is sad. On Highend 2019 in Munich I talked with the Director of Classé Brand about the future of Classé. He said that Classé is going into Highend Stereo only, leaving Highend AV to Marantz - which is even more sad, as we now know. I had hoped that the engineers at Classè could get support from Marantz regarding digital audio-video processing to be able to support new formats faster via firmware update. Of course this is a stupid hope.

The best way really is what @Blumlein 88 said: do all processing on a PC connected to a multichannel DAC.

 

[amirm]

HDMI killed the high-end AVR/Processor market. Chip companies providing HDMI silicon do not want to deal with low-volume vendors and won't support them. So the bottom fell out from under all the high-end companies. So we are stuck with mass market companies for any HDMI type product for the most part.

 

[Sal1950]

HDMI killed the high-end AVR/Processor market. Chip companies providing HDMI silicon do not want to deal with low-volume vendors and won't support them. So the bottom fell out from under all the high-end companies. So we are stuck with mass market companies for any HDMI type product for the most part.

I'm not following you there, I can't see the logic in your statement.

 

[amirm]

I'm not following you there, I can't see the logic in your statement.

When video was analog, you were not limited or single sourced on silicon. Parts were available broadly and anyone could build a video/audio switcher which an AV processor/AMP was.

Enter HDMI. You had to buy the silicon from just one or two companies who had built HDMI transceivers. And those companies had no interested in serving customers who were only going to sell a few hundred or thousand parts. They wanted hundreds of thousands of parts. So they decided they would not support any high-end company building AV processors. This shrunk the market significantly and left us with mass market brands you know today. These companies in turn lost their shirt competing with each other and the result is ho-hum products with no attempt at building state-of-the-art products.

 

[Sal1950]

This shrunk the market significantly and left us with mass market brands you know today. These companies in turn lost their shirt competing with each other and the result is ho-hum products with no attempt at building state-of-the-art products.

Not debating but I just can't see the cause-effect you're proposing.
Seems to me the factor resulting in ho-hum performance is a lack of serious measurements be taken at places like at ASR. AFAIK most AVR's doing the digital video switching in HDMI is transparent, I don't read of anyone claiming or documenting signal degradation in the video signal pass-thu and the poor audio numbers you documented didn't occur in HDMI.
As in the general DAC market, poor performance can be laid at the feet of poor engineering. No reason that a $4500 processor should be lacking accept that no one is watching.

 

[Blumlein 88]

When video was analog, you were not limited or single sourced on silicon. Parts were available broadly and anyone could build a video/audio switcher which an AV processor/AMP was.

Enter HDMI. You had to buy the silicon from just one or two companies who had built HDMI transceivers. And those companies had no interested in serving customers who were only going to sell a few hundred or thousand parts. They wanted hundreds of thousands of parts. So they decided they would not support any high-end company building AV processors. This shrunk the market significantly and left us with mass market brands you know today. These companies in turn lost their shirt competing with each other and the result is ho-hum products with no attempt at building state-of-the-art products.

Yes, but it is now looking like one company. So that company will get to decide what state of the art is in AV processors. So far it doesn't look good.

 

[Sal1950]

There is other gear out there, a midrange of NAD, Anthem, Emotiva, etc. And a high end like Acurus, StormAudio, Trinnov.
We just lack anyone to do honest reviews.

 

[RayDunzl]

Made me look.

So, I read about two "high-end" AV Processors.

I suppose they have all sorts of sound modes, certainly enough licenses attached.

Neither says it does anything to the video except switch it.

 

[Blumlein 88]

There is other gear out there, a midrange of NAD, Anthem, Emotiva, etc. And a high end like Acurus, StormAudio, Trinnov.
We just lack anyone to do honest reviews.

My review of Emotiva indicates, look elsewhere for midrange AV processors. I believe Anthem's are mostly the same inside as the mid priced Emotiva. Or I should say were. New models out now. Wonder if they list any specs in the owners manual? Can't say it doesn't meet spec if there are none.

Okay, just checked on the Emotiva MC700 $699 processor. Specs listed consist of channels, ins and outs etc. Not one audio performance specification is given. I'd stay very far away. If it was even okay they'd list them. I suppose you can give them credit for being honest by making no claims. I'd give them that credit and buy something else.

Here is the entirety of the specifications in the MC700 owners manual.