-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Review and Measurements of Audio-gd NFB2 192 DAC
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
solderdude
Grand Contributor
It's O.K. to like/prefer/buy AGD and other not well measuring stuff. It's another thing to say it IS good stuff even if it measures poorly.
Some folks recommend stuff after listening to it and can, unknowingly, recommend something to others that may not measure well but sounds 'good enough' or even 'excellent' to that individual yet still sound less than other stuff.
At ASR the consensus is that when it measures well it should sound good as well (as in not euphonic, colored) in which case it is perfectly fine to recommend something without even bothering to listen to it. After all that would only say something about what the reviewer feels/thinks and not what others may 'find'.
Of course chances are that those that prefer a colored or euphonic sound may not like/prefer the sound from technically good performing equipment and chances also exist that when a device is not recommended based on performance it simply still is good enough to be 'transparant enough' for most people.
Instead of complaining and telling folks here they are stupid and ignorant perhaps dwell at other forums ?
Chances are you won't be able to learn anything there that is outside of your comfort zone.
Last edited:
solderdude
Grand Contributor
The 'stupid and ignorant' thing is what replies from some ASR members make YOU feel.
One can believe the brain doesn't fool everyone ad what one hears is always the 'truth' but it is proven beyond any doubt that everyones brain can easily be fooled. Including those of ASR members who usually are quite aware of this effect and try to use methods that prevent this as much as possible.
Did you succeed and did it leave you with a positive feeling that you are understood ?
Is your method of temprating the correct one for this forum ?
What is being said/explained here is how to test things while eliminating certain 'pitfalls' as much as possible.
That is something one could apply and will give you a different insight in things.
It won't affect your abilities nor change enjoyment.
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
I wouldn't go that far. Amplifiers at ASR tend to be tested at one load (4 ohms) with both channels driven. It's simply not enough to characterize how they will perform into typical speakers or wildly fluctuating loads in the real world. With the limited testing for power amplification (speaker amplifiers), a listening test in addition is most important.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
In this case I was talking about DACs (in response to the AGD DAC in question) 
Measuring amps indeed is a totally different game where the load is very important.
How an amplifier handles back-EMF and certain capacitive and inductive loads is not tested.
Even a complex dummy load will never be able to replace real speakers.
Listening tests are indeed very valuable here
Measuring amps indeed is a totally different game where the load is very important.
How an amplifier handles back-EMF and certain capacitive and inductive loads is not tested.
Even a complex dummy load will never be able to replace real speakers.
Listening tests are indeed very valuable here
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
Yes, I agree. The D/A testing done here pretty much covers all the key measurable parameters.
The things I'd like to see audibly tested are for example:
What noises/clicks/muting when sample rate changing or SPDIF to USB switching?
How does the unit behave when data drops out? Are there bursts of noise?
Is the muting audible in low level tracks when one finishes and another starts?
How noisy are the relays, volume pots etc?
How long does the unit take to respond to commands, are there lags in volume/source actuation.
Can it be confused with quick key presses and what happens?
Does it lock up or mute sometimes for no reason?
(the above things can become very annoying for owners, but do they take significant time to test, something you cannot commit to with a backlog of gear)
And then you have usability where Amir does a great job IMO:
Is the remote useless, too tiny or have poor range?
Are the buttons wiggly and cheap?
Are the sockets strong and well anchored?
Is the finish cheap?
Are there interfacing issues?
Are there potential safety issues?
It's subjective. I prefer to have a dac with whom i'm sure i will enjoy the music and the reviews don't help much me in that regard.
Well you must have wide access to the available offerings to audition in your system. You are thus inordinately privileged compared to most.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Just to reinforce the idea that "you hear what you see", this is based on one of Floyd Toole's presentation. Not only sighted tests rating changed, but it actually reversed for 2 of the speakers in blinded tests! They were professionals (Harman employees mostly) and we all know audio differences in speakers are usually very pronounced.
You can see the whole video here (very interesting)
We are visual creatures, which is the worst of the worst bias in science to evaluate anything. Don't think it's only audio.
You can see the whole video here (very interesting)
We are visual creatures, which is the worst of the worst bias in science to evaluate anything. Don't think it's only audio.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
That's why you are probably better of reading head-fi, and review sites.
We prefer DACs that ensure we enjoy music on it too... reviews and measurements do help 'us' in that regard.
I'd rather depend on measured performance than taking someones word for it which is often based on subjective and sighted 'evaluations' in colorful wording.
Once I was firmly in 'your camp' but then discovered the value of comparing, listening and testing properly with as much bias removed as possible.
Did audibility tests etc. which all proved to provide valuable information I otherwise would never have had.
Last edited:
I'm sure you ve still a feet in my camp.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
I should not feed the troll but I just want to say that objective ands valid measurements and personal preferences are two very different things.
It is like when people, a few years ago mostly (I hope the trend is lower now), bought a TV brand over another (or even a different model of the same brand) because that TV's images popped up besides measuring crap (=very bright, with a bluish color tone and with saturated color) but at least that TV besides measuring like that (on purpose, to be sold to the masses XD) was able to achieve excellent results if properly calibrated (see desaturated colors, reddish tones compared to the previous setting and so on)... In this case you could have adjusted it to your personal preferences or (correctly?) stick to the video standard because it was capable of it: meaning it was properly engineered.
If you can't do it with a DAC (meaning set it at your likings) and you have to pick one up that is badly executed (=sounds bad measurements-wise) because you like how it sounds we are okay with it but don't tell us that we should listen to it and we should like it for the way it is because preferences are personals but objective data aren't. I would be happier knowing that I have a perfectly engineered DAC that I made sounds crap because for example I prefer a V-shaped sound or, as you say around here, sounds warm (I am just saying XD).
It is like when people, a few years ago mostly (I hope the trend is lower now), bought a TV brand over another (or even a different model of the same brand) because that TV's images popped up besides measuring crap (=very bright, with a bluish color tone and with saturated color) but at least that TV besides measuring like that (on purpose, to be sold to the masses XD) was able to achieve excellent results if properly calibrated (see desaturated colors, reddish tones compared to the previous setting and so on)... In this case you could have adjusted it to your personal preferences or (correctly?) stick to the video standard because it was capable of it: meaning it was properly engineered.
If you can't do it with a DAC (meaning set it at your likings) and you have to pick one up that is badly executed (=sounds bad measurements-wise) because you like how it sounds we are okay with it but don't tell us that we should listen to it and we should like it for the way it is because preferences are personals but objective data aren't. I would be happier knowing that I have a perfectly engineered DAC that I made sounds crap because for example I prefer a V-shaped sound or, as you say around here, sounds warm (I am just saying XD).
- Joined
- May 25, 2019
- Messages
- 158
- Likes
- 218
what I don't get is why people get upset at the people who measured equipment that was subpar instead of at the manufacturers.
I own a Schiit Modi 2 U. I read the review of that unit here and now it's on sale**. I;m grateful at Amir for testing it and a bit upset at the whole audio community (read Head Fi) for recommending it under dubious circumstances, as well as at Schiit for producing subpar stuff and in certain cases not putting attention to safety.
** I now have a D10 BTW and I believe there's a large difference. The thing is, I wasn't using Modi 2 U through SPDIF where the differences might not be perceptible against a D10, but I was using it through USB, the worst possible input to use the Modi with.
I own a Schiit Modi 2 U. I read the review of that unit here and now it's on sale**. I;m grateful at Amir for testing it and a bit upset at the whole audio community (read Head Fi) for recommending it under dubious circumstances, as well as at Schiit for producing subpar stuff and in certain cases not putting attention to safety.
** I now have a D10 BTW and I believe there's a large difference. The thing is, I wasn't using Modi 2 U through SPDIF where the differences might not be perceptible against a D10, but I was using it through USB, the worst possible input to use the Modi with.
@AndrovichIV so you were enjoying your dac and after reading asr you didn't enjoy it anymore?
I don't see the difference with liking a dac based on a headfi forum.
You re biased by what you read and that changed your mind.
To me i don't mind if a dac measures bad or if headfi don't like it.
Most important is that I like it. I'm not influenced by either side.
asr give a measurement aspect.
Forums give musical aspect.
I think the two complete each other.
What i don't understand is why asr i angry about people who ear differences between op amps or between good measuring stuff.
Even if they are wrong (what i don't believe) what's the problem? Why no beeing tolerent?
Why not beeing tolerant with manufacturers who believe less in measurements? Who try different thing.
It's like asr want to eradicate this.
But it's better to have diversity in the world. If you don't like it respect it don't kill it.
I don't see the difference with liking a dac based on a headfi forum.
You re biased by what you read and that changed your mind.
To me i don't mind if a dac measures bad or if headfi don't like it.
Most important is that I like it. I'm not influenced by either side.
asr give a measurement aspect.
Forums give musical aspect.
I think the two complete each other.
What i don't understand is why asr i angry about people who ear differences between op amps or between good measuring stuff.
Even if they are wrong (what i don't believe) what's the problem? Why no beeing tolerent?
Why not beeing tolerant with manufacturers who believe less in measurements? Who try different thing.
It's like asr want to eradicate this.
But it's better to have diversity in the world. If you don't like it respect it don't kill it.
Get that refund.
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
