Revel F328Be or KEF Reference 3 Speakers.

[CDMC]

DeVore Fidelity Orangutan 0/93. Natural sounding with a musical liquidity, tone and timbre are exceptional. A joy to listen to with all types of music.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o93-loudspeaker-measurements

Are you sure these are the speakers you are describing? Horrible cabinet resonances, off axis response that looks like a roller coaster, port noise. About the only thing natural with those is the overpriced wood box they come in. For $800 I would expect much better. For the $8,400 that the manufacture is charging, it is shameful. That speaker literally has $100 of drivers for the entire speaker, probably $20 in crossover components and the cost of the crummy enclosure.

 

[CDMC]

View attachment 88953
So ceramic drivers have an obvious "ringing" tone, aluminum drivers sound "metallic", and your suggestion, outside of the OP's inquiry, is for speakers that require "hundreds of hours of burn in". The Audio Science trifecta!

Don't forget, you can only detect it if you know what you are looking for and have amazing ears. Apparently this ringing, which does not appear in measurements, is only audible to the golden ears that can imagine it. I just checked, I can't hear it in my Philharmonics which have a ceramic driver.

 

[valinicolaie]

In the KEF Reference public White paper there is a spinorama like measurement. It is valid for Reference 5 prototype which I think was used as the "reference" for the production units. I believe one can extrapolate rather easy that Ref 3s are not much different in terms of FR and DIs and rather differ in the sensitivity department and about 2Hz less bass extention. In my opinion, as a Reference 3 owner in a small room (albeit acoustically treated), I think they will fare a bit better due to their nature of controlled directivity (to a point) and a bit less or rather better controlled early reflections and how they sum up. Plus, I know that KEF is testing them to sound good and balanced not only in their anechoic rooms but also in bare wall acoustic spaces. Hope this helps.

 

[avanti1960]

View attachment 88953
So ceramic drivers have an obvious "ringing" tone, aluminum drivers sound "metallic", and your suggestion, outside of the OP's inquiry, is for speakers that require "hundreds of hours of burn in". The Audio Science trifecta!

this is what i hear.
having been to several audio shows and being able to compare dozens of different systems and speakers by walking into different rooms, the revels and other ceramic driver based speakers have a distinctive sound that is a subtle but noticeable trailing edge in lower treble notes. it is obvious once you hear the differences.
not all aluminum drivers have a metallic overtone in fact the speakers i own have aluminum tweeters and they sound fantastic. however having owned and listened to the kef r series and reference series the metallic sounding tendencies are apparent and corroborated. the kef ls50s and kef blades are noticeably better in this area.
as for the spendor d series requiring break in to start sounding smooth this is also an experience i and others have had and these speakers are significantly more demanding in this area for some reason. out of the box they are nearly intolerable to listen to, thin, edgy and harsh. they start sounding decent after about 50 hours but did not sound excellent until 200 hrs or so as witnessed in my log book when i owned them.
your lack of respect for my experiences is your own issue.

 

[andreasmaaan]

having been to several audio shows and being able to compare dozens of different systems and speakers by walking into different rooms, the revels and other ceramic driver based speakers have a distinctive sound that is a subtle but noticeable trailing edge in lower treble notes

What frequency range do you mean by "lower treble"? You realise that the lower treble range on the Revels is not handled by ceramic drivers, right?

 

[avanti1960]

https://www.stereophile.com/content/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o93-loudspeaker-measurements

Are you sure these are the speakers you are describing? Horrible cabinet resonances, off axis response that looks like a roller coaster, port noise. About the only thing natural with those is the overpriced wood box they come in. For $800 I would expect much better. For the $8,400 that the manufacture is charging, it is shameful. That speaker literally has $100 of drivers for the entire speaker, probably $20 in crossover components and the cost of the crummy enclosure.

yes, i agree they measure poorly, however the owner designer john devore is a gifted creative artist of speaker design and voicing. these need to be experienced to be appreciated. they were so well liked by the stereophile staff that the reviewer and others have bought them.

 

[Shazb0t]

this is what i hear.
having been to several audio shows and being able to compare dozens of different systems and speakers by walking into different rooms, the revels and other ceramic driver based speakers have a distinctive sound that is a subtle but noticeable trailing edge in lower treble notes. it is obvious once you hear the differences.
not all aluminum drivers have a metallic overtone in fact the speakers i own have aluminum tweeters and they sound fantastic. however having owned and listened to the kef r series and reference series the metallic sounding tendencies are apparent and corroborated. the kef ls50s and kef blades are noticeably better in this area.
as for the spendor d series requiring break in to start sounding smooth this is also an experience i and others have had and these speakers are significantly more demanding in this area for some reason. out of the box they are nearly intolerable to listen to, thin, edgy and harsh. they start sounding decent after about 50 hours but did not sound excellent until 200 hrs or so as witnessed in my log book when i owned them.
your lack of respect for my experiences is your own issue.

You'll earn some respect if you can provide any peer reviewed scientific evidence that supports those claims. As of right now you're essentially spitting in the face of all the peer reviewed science in an Audio Science forum. There are plenty of other forums where your insistence on the validity of bad methodology is celebrated. I hope that you can appreciate that there are people who don't subscribe to that method of thinking and that this is a place for them.

 

[CDMC]

this is what i hear.
having been to several audio shows and being able to compare dozens of different systems and speakers by walking into different rooms, the revels and other ceramic driver based speakers have a distinctive sound that is a subtle but noticeable trailing edge in lower treble notes. it is obvious once you hear the differences.
not all aluminum drivers have a metallic overtone in fact the speakers i own have aluminum tweeters and they sound fantastic. however having owned and listened to the kef r series and reference series the metallic sounding tendencies are apparent and corroborated. the kef ls50s and kef blades are noticeably better in this area.
as for the spendor d series requiring break in to start sounding smooth this is also an experience i and others have had and these speakers are significantly more demanding in this area for some reason. out of the box they are nearly intolerable to listen to, thin, edgy and harsh. they start sounding decent after about 50 hours but did not sound excellent until 200 hrs or so as witnessed in my log book when i owned them.
your lack of respect for my experiences is your own issue.

It has been demonstrated time and time again that human hearing is extremely unreliable and heavily influenced by psychological beliefs, both conscious and unconscious.

Addressing your claims:

• You heard this in different systems in different rooms. A few questions:
  • How did you isolate the sound of the drivers from the other equipment?
  • How did you account for the differences in sound between different rooms and setups?
  • What measurements did you take that demonstrate a resonance (what you are describing is a resonance and is easily identified when measured)?
  • What did you do in order to ensure that your were not just hearing what you believed?
  • How did you account for the ear's very short term ability to accurately compare sounds?
  • What did you use as a reference for comparison to the other speakers? In other words, what was your fixed reference?
  • Did you listen to the same speakers with a different front end? Cables? Amps? It appears you believe that all will have an effect on the sound, so how do you know it wasn't those?
• Kef's sounding metallic, a few more questions:
  • How do you identify metallic sounding speakers?
  • What did you do to isolate the sound to the metallic drivers?
  • What did you do to make sure it wasn't other equipment causing the perceived sound?
  • What did you do to make sure it wasn't the room causing the sound?
  • What other references did you use to isolate that it was the drivers in the speakers causing what you heard?
• Speaker Break in:
  • What measurements did you perform to confirm that their sound changed? A speaker being thin, edgy and harsh that sounds radically different after "break in" will show a clear change in response.
  • Have you considered the well documented effect that speakers don't change in sound, but the listener adapts?

My "lack of respect", as you call it, is not about your experience, it is your attempting to foist your experience off as anything but subjective interpretation.

 

[CDMC]

yes, i agree they measure poorly, however the owner designer john devore is a gifted creative artist of speaker design and voicing. these need to be experienced to be appreciated. they were so well liked by the stereophile staff that the reviewer and others have bought them.

Oh boy, the staff of Stereophile bought them. They also used to advocate coloring CDs with green pens, claim to be able to hear massive differences between cables, and some use cable risers and other quackery (I will note I am not including all Stereophile writers, i.e. John Atkinson and Kal). We will have to disagree that John Devore is a gifted speaker designer, the measurements of his speakers show he is not. His $12,000 speakers measure as poorly as his $8,400 speakers:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/devore-fidelity-orangutan-o96-loudspeaker-measurements

Here is an example of a speaker designed by a gifted designer, $1,700:

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/philharmonic_bmr/

Or a $200 pair of speakers that perform far better:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dale-diamond-220-budget-speaker-review.16752/

The only thing I can see that Devore is gifted at is selling at $400 speakers for $12,000.

 

[Digi]

I have measured my F328Be but they are too darn heavy to drag up to my listening room. I have not yet decided how to solve that problem.

Amirm,
How are you?

Have you listened to Revel's F328Be speakers and could you share your opinion on these? Are the HF ear fatiguing? Do they produce sufficient bass? How do you compare the F328Be to these both sonically and value for money?

 

[Digi]

I’d just get the Revels and call it a day. Only saying this because I have the F228Be and used to have the F208. And considering how they made improvements on the F328Be, I can’t see how anyone would not be amazed by them.

I tried to listen to the Kefs but the lack of dealers around me made me give up. Revels also have great service...especially when you deal with them directly.

Could you share your experiences with your F228Be speakers? Are the HF ear fatiguing? Do they produce good Bass?

 

[Asinus]

Could you share your experiences with your F228Be speakers? Are the HF ear fatiguing? Do they produce good Bass?

I also went from 208 to 228, I don't find treble harsh or fatiguing on either of them. I still crossed them to a sub to lighten the amp load and be able to reach down to 20 on the odd track that does it, but standalone they still are tight while giving a nice thump to the chest, they just will never be able to do that ominous room pressurization multiple subs can.

IMO you are getting a pretty good deal (getting 328s for the MSRP of 228s) so even in the unlikely event of you not liking them you could hardly loss any money if you resell. Other thing to consider is how good is the KEF distributor/dealer in your country considering you already have a good connection with the Harman dealer.

 

[Lsc]

Could you share your experiences with your F228Be speakers? Are the HF ear fatiguing? Do they produce good Bass?

I was actually just listening to my F228Be after I put some room treatment up.

My experience with the F228Be is such that I would highly recommend them if you are ok with how they look. The sound quality is so good with no HF fatigue. The bass is excellent - I often use them with the sub turned off. But I do listen to a lot of music with heavy bass so I crossover at 60hz to my PB16.

It really has everything, great imaging, dynamics, bass, mids, highs. I have many evenings where I need to turn off my gear so I can go to bed but I extend my listening sessions for another hour or more - it’s that addicting.

With my kids going to college in the next few years, I’ll be stuck with these for a while - so I’m glad I upgraded to the F228Be. The F208 was also a really good speaker - again another great all around speaker but the F228Be gets you that next level of detail that as an “audiophile” (whatever that means in this day and age), that last little bit of honey is what makes all the difference.

Fyi, I purposely tried to sound like a reviewer .

 

[Digi]

I have no doubt you might prefer these speakers, but the likelihood that the OP will prefer these speakers over the Revel or KEF is - unfortunately - probably very low. Without specific known individual preference knowledge, I think it's best to recommend the speakers he is "most likely" to prefer(imo), and the Toole/Olive science shows us that the vast majority of people prefer speakers that are neutral on axis, with off axis sound that is similar to the on axis sound, well controlled and narrowing dispersion, free of resonances(Harbeths have a lot of resonance), and with low distortion. The speakers you mention(from what I've seen) are all lacking in one or more of these areas, while the F328be and Reference 3 are paragons of these principals. No doubt there's a subset of folks that will prefer the speakers you mention(no accounting for individual taste), but that subset is - almost certainly - very small in comparison to the group of folks that will prefer the Revel/KEF.

OP, if there's any way you can get a returnable in house demo of these speakers(DeVore/Spendor/Harbeth) side by side with the Revel/KEF to compare, then go for it(no harm in trying). Otherwise, I still think you're much better off going with the speakers you've chosen. The likelihood that you will love either of these SOTA speakers is very high, imo.

Here on the island, there are no Hifi Shops available. There are individuals who are authorized dealers with zero inventory, hence having to rely on others experiences to move forward.

 

[Digi]

I also went from 208 to 228, I don't find treble harsh or fatiguing on either of them. I still crossed them to a sub to lighten the amp load and be able to reach down to 20 on the odd track that does it, but standalone they still are tight while giving a nice thump to the chest, they just will never be able to do that ominous room pressurization multiple subs can.

IMO you are getting a pretty good deal (getting 328s for the MSRP of 228s) so even in the unlikely event of you not liking them you could hardly loss any money if you resell. Other thing to consider is how good is the KEF distributor/dealer in your country considering you already have a good connection with the Harman dealer.

The Revel and KEF dealer is the same person. Lol.

 

[Digi]

I was actually just listening to my F228Be after I put some room treatment up.

My experience with the F228Be is such that I would highly recommend them if you are ok with how they look. The sound quality is so good with no HF fatigue. The bass is excellent - I often use them with the sub turned off. But I do listen to a lot of music with heavy bass so I crossover at 60hz to my PB16.

It really has everything, great imaging, dynamics, bass, mids, highs. I have many evenings where I need to turn off my gear so I can go to bed but I extend my listening sessions for another hour or more - it’s that addicting.

With my kids going to college in the next few years, I’ll be stuck with these for a while - so I’m glad I upgraded to the F228Be. The F208 was also a really good speaker - again another great all around speaker but the F228Be gets you that next level of detail that as an “audiophile” (whatever that means in this day and age), that last little bit of honey is what makes all the difference.

Fyi, I purposely tried to sound like a reviewer .

Thanks for reaching out. Have you heard the F328Be speakers and are they that much better than the F228Be?

 

[Lsc]

Thanks for reaching out. Have you heard the F328Be speakers and are they that much better than the F228Be?

I have not heard the F328Be and don’t have any plans on listening to them but I’m sure they are superior based on what I’ve read.

Obviously the laws of diminishing returns is there so the decision of value is an individual choice.

 

[jae]

I'd be weary of any KEF speakers going on sale any time within the next year or so, I think they are planning on upgrading most of their drivers with the new metamaterial stuff. So keep in mind there's a good possibility anything you buy from kef now may be "last generation" very soon, if you care about having the latest and greatest.

 

[valinicolaie]

I'd be weary of any KEF speakers going on sale any time within the next year or so, I think they are planning on upgrading most of their drivers with the new metamaterial stuff. So keep in mind there's a good possibility anything you buy from kef now may be "last generation" very soon, if you care about having the latest and greatest.

... Or a great opportunity to buy (still) exceptionally engineered speakers at a better price point than MSRP. Progress is inevitable and some companies genuinely pursuit it. Some much more than others.

 

[amirm]

Amirm,
How are you?

Have you listened to Revel's F328Be speakers and could you share your opinion on these? Are the HF ear fatiguing? Do they produce sufficient bass? How do you compare the F328Be to these both sonically and value for money?

I have not listened to them. It is stuck in my garage at the moment.