Speaker postioning? Was your brother in the sweet spot every audition? Volume matching? Hard to say.
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Revel F228Be, is it that far behind?
- Thread starter veeceem
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So he only gave the 228's a 5? That just doesn't sound right to me?
Just what you want to do with vinyl, aim the woofers right at the TT only inches away.
How much for the little girl?
777
Senior Member
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The best is Salon 2 with the most large soundstage, the second is Studio 2 very close and the third is F228Be wich has a narrower soundstage. Anyway, all three lodspeakers are very good. Not close to perfection but yet very good.
- Thread Starter
- #24
By "large soundstage" does it mean "dispersion"?
My current Revel M16s which I temporary use in the listening room have very big soundstage, sometimes as large as the 6meter wall in front of the seat. I wonder how big it'd be with Salon2!
Anyway, I decided to be all in or nothing, so I'm going for the Salon2 even thou my room is not big (only 25m2)
Thanks
Not so far as I know.
- Thread Starter
- #26
So what's that that makes the soundstage "big"? M16s have much bigger soundstage compared to anything "not Revel" I've listened to :/
Thanks
I've found that well designed speakers when properly set up will produce a wall to wall soundstage if it exists on the source. The depth illusion is very problematic varying with things like FR, phase control in the crossovers, more.
Soundstage is... complicated, and I am no acoustics expert (long time since my grad classes, do not recall the professor using the word "soundstage", and my career took a different path). That said, based on what little I know of the theory, my own experience, and readings such as books by Toole and Everest, given a reasonable distance from the speakers the sound stage depends quite a bit on the room and off-axis dispersion of the speakers. Given the same room, I venture to guess that Revel's focus on smooth off-axis response provides a better sound stage in your room. Many speakers exhibit pretty severe frequency aberrations (changes from smooth frequency response) moving off-axis even horizontally (virtually all do vertically, including Revel, but we rarely move much in the vertical plane from our favorite listening spot). That can introduce frequency response ripples in the off-axis sound and in turn mess up the sound stage.
That also implies you need smooth on-axis response, not strange ripples in frequency or phase response across the frequency range, natch.
A lot of research went into that simple-looking waveguide around the tweeter...
IME/IMO - Don
That also implies you need smooth on-axis response, not strange ripples in frequency or phase response across the frequency range, natch.
A lot of research went into that simple-looking waveguide around the tweeter...
IME/IMO - Don
The new PerformaBE waveguide has better dispersion at very high frequencies, also the sound power is smoother in the treble. On the other hand they run the treble hotter on-axis than Ultima2 so depending where you sit it may sound brighter.
Also the Gem2 and Salon2 have better measurements than the Studio2 due to the dedicated 4" midrange.
Also the Gem2 and Salon2 have better measurements than the Studio2 due to the dedicated 4" midrange.
In the "What Science Shows" thread over on AVS they originally had a presentation that included the Salon 2, F228be and the Magico A3 I believe. The Salon 2 had the highest ratings in that test with the F228 very close behind. There was an article posted on Stereophile I believe that had the F208 beating the Studio 2 so I would easily put the F228 ahead of it, probably why it is now discontinued.
I actually figured the reason the F228be 'lost' was less wide dispersion from 2k to 8k. It's not readily apparent from the spins, but in JA's plots, the Salon2 and Studio2 maintain much more energy out to 90 degrees up to about 8Khz - the response is down about 12dB. at the same point, the F228be is down about 18dB. The latter transitions more smoothly into the top octave but I often prefer the former approach, since in the top octave the direct sound matters matters most anyway, and many people can't hear all that well above 10Khz.
As much as I appreciate spinorama curves, sometimes this kind of directivity information is obscured due to averaging.
Edit: Perhaps this is more obvious in Soundstage Network's measurements.
First, here's the Revel M126Be. Not the same speaker, I know, but I'm pretty sure it has the same waveguide and tweeter, and it shows the same response characteristics. First graph is 0/15/30, second is 45/60/75:
And here's the Salon2:
Note the tighter spacing of the lines out to 75 degrees for the Salon2. See how it maintains more energy out to about 8KHz before it drops off rapidly? Meanwhile the M126Be starts to droop at around 5K, though it transitions more smoothly into the top octave. As with stereophile's measurements, the Salon2 is down by about 9dB at 8K and 75 degrees, the M126Be by about 13dB.
All these suggest the Salon2 has a bigger, more spacious sound. Not dramatically, but likely noticeable in a direct comparison. The Studio2 shows similar behavior, so it doesn't surprise me these two Revels won.
Conversely, the F228Be might have a slightly more 'pinpoint' imaging. This is largely a matter of prefence, and can vary depending on the listener, the room, placement, and even the music you're playing. But wider often wins in direct comparisons for recreational listening. It's also worth noting that in my experience wider directivity speakers are less sensitive to placement than narrower ones, so you might need to finagle a bit more with the F228Be to get the best sound. Not that the F228Be is particularly narrow, it's just the Salon2 and Studio2 are clearly wider.
Anyway, if I had to guess based just on measurements, knowing nothing else about the speakers - I've never even heard a Revel speaker, mind you - I'd have guessed the Salon2 and Studio2 would have won for this reason. At least, it's the most obvious meaningful difference between the speakers in the frequency domain.
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Do you have a link to that?
Do you have a link to that?
Here it is, turns out my memory isn't the greatest and it was SoundandVision lol... but still all 3 speakers were very close: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/revel-trifecta
Thanks. They are all very close.
- Thread Starter
- #35
Thanks for the inputs, I decided to join the Salon2 group anyway because this will be my last purchase of tower speakers. They should be here at the end of the week.
Looking forward to pair them with my Anthem STR preamp/Topping DX7 Pro and NAD M22 v2 power amp. Hope it has enough current to drive them. I'll keep posting if anyone interests.
Looking forward to pair them with my Anthem STR preamp/Topping DX7 Pro and NAD M22 v2 power amp. Hope it has enough current to drive them. I'll keep posting if anyone interests.
While that NAD will probably have no issues driving Salon2s because of their very decent impedance characteristics here is what I find odd with it:
(copied from the Data Sheet)
Effortless Power
Employing the latest generation of digital PowerDrive™, the M22 V2 offers a minimum of 300W per channel with amazing reserves of dynamic power at lower impedances. The M22 V2 is capable of >400W dynamic power per channel even in 8 ohms, >700W in 4 Ohms, and 1,000W in 2 ohms. Need more power? Select Bridge Mode and the M22 V2 offers 950W at 8 Ohms in Mono. It can effortlessly power any loudspeaker to live performance levels with amazing efficiency and low power consumption.
And here is what it says on the back panel:
So, does this mean that this amp's power supply is rated at 600W? And yet they claim it is able to deliver "minimum of 300W per channel with amazing reserves of dynamic power at lower impedances. The M22 V2 is capable of >400W dynamic power per channel even in 8 ohms, >700W in 4 Ohms, and 1,000W in 2 ohms."?
Is this device able to deliver more power to the speakers than it draws from the power grid or I'm missing something?
The power rating is from (for) the AC line (wall input power) and varies fairly widely depending upon what standards body they use (if any). Take with block of salt. The often use an average weighting so that does not necessarily indicate what the amp can actually deliver.
I know it is declared power rating that is to be pulled from the AC line and it is supposed to match the power rating of the amp's power supply transformer. When I see power rating of 600W and claim that amp can deliver 1000W + losses to cover used power which will be converted to heat instead to be sent to speakers I am quite sceptical about those claims. Anyway, befire buying this amp I would be very much interested to know the power capacity of this amp's power supply and max current capacities of it's output stage elements.
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vavan
Senior Member
I find that even my poor man's f208 gives great sense of spaciousness so I'm less inclined to upmix stereo since I purchased these couple of months ago
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