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Resolving Measurement Issues with SONCOZ SGD1 DAC

Maki

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I hunted down the thread on Reddit from where the quote by the user NFTOxaile came from. How others can stomach reading and engaging in discussions with that much vitriol is beyond me. It was awful to the point it was distracting and hard to follow the arguments people made. I can't say that I find Amir... unconfrontational, but at least here the discourse remains civil when things get heated.

I then read the thread on SBAF and came across the same thing as on Reddit, arguments buried in deep layers of anger.

Why is it that this hobby makes people so angry?

Either way, I'm very happy that ASR exist. It's one of the few places on the internet that still feels like a community.

People base their whole identities around the crappy toys and trinkets they buy and then seethe when it's exposed. They personally take offense because they have incorporated ownership of that product into their personality so any slight against the product is a slight against them.
 

Robbo99999

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Robbo99999

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I hunted down the thread on Reddit from where the quote by the user NFTOxaile came from. How others can stomach reading and engaging in discussions with that much vitriol is beyond me. It was awful to the point it was distracting and hard to follow the arguments people made. I can't say that I find Amir... unconfrontational, but at least here the discourse remains civil when things get heated.

I then read the thread on SBAF and came across the same thing as on Reddit, arguments buried in deep layers of anger.

Why is it that this hobby makes people so angry?

Either way, I'm very happy that ASR exist. It's one of the few places on the internet that still feels like a community.
Too many people too unhappy with their headphones makes them angry! Unhappy ears!

(Although I've spent about 3 pages here in this thread reading about Goldeneye or some other bond film or villain that was somehow tied up in this debacle....not really a highlight of ASR, but I'll live!)
 
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Robbo99999

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I don’t think you need Reddit for this. All
Presets can be found of GitHub.
They're not the same as Oratory's 10 band parametric EQ's even though they're based on Oratory's measurement, I prefer Oratory's EQ's. But yeah, I can certainly tolerate reddit for Oratory's site.....even the posting section of Oratory's reddit is fine & educational.
 

aj625

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Sbaf has only a single agenda to promote schiit products. You can't even think even in your wildest dreams of saying anything tiny against any schiit products. They will literally murder you online, such is the nature of that group. But now lot has changed. I see people recognising the power of measurements and scientific approach to digital to analog conversion. But during last 4 to 5 years sbaf has already mindwashed so many people specially in india. Major chunk of audiophiles in india still believe in superiority of r2r and nos dacs despite poor measurements. No wonder dacs like Sonnet morpheus,metrum, yggy, mimby,bimby,gumby,nobsound 8x,soekris are loved very much here.
 
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testp

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This unit has wifi ? That's some scary shii bro all I want it to do is transfer signal from digital (usb cable) to analog domain

no, this unit would have a wifi to connect to only if you make one for it, and it only stays in your wifi for about a minute to check for updates... phone hotspot is the best approach for that
 

nyxnyxnyx

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I'd suggest something a bit different. Sincerity is one thing, but if someone is sincere (or honest) in their delusions, others should not necessarily appreciate that. Rather, the mark of a good reviewer is the ability and willingness to change one's opinions in light of new facts, when those facts dictate as much. And it is especially exceptional if it results in a sea change anent one's previous outlook.

In reviewing, perhaps the most notable example was Peter Aczel, who within a few months completely changed his outlook on electronic component 'sound' once he matched levels and realized he couldn't tell the difference between the Mark Levinson and the inexpensive brand.

As far as Amir? If you follow ASR I think you have to agree that he's open and honest, with no hidden agendas. In the original post from Reddit..., the accusation that he does not routinely 'disclose' the companies he works with? Where did that come from?

First and foremost, I apologize that I'm not familiar with the name Peter Aczel, but I shall research a bit to understand more of the reference you mentioned. But let me start with agreeing with you that I have no doubts about properly ABX, level-matched testing methods. I think its the realest way to discover if ourselves are being altered by different factors (moods, current health status, placebo, etc...)

I think you saying the word delusion is a bit heavy and uncalled for something like the audio hobby. As far as we are aware almost if not all subjective remarks are created during sighted listening sessions instead of proper ABX, volume-matched testings. So said subjective differences might keep appearing and I think it's quite natural that it happens this way (because they listen casually instead of doing proper tests). I'd understand better if you use the word "delusion" to someone who keeps hearing different differences every time he listens to a device whether in a casual listening condition or in a proper test: In other words being very inconsistent with his conclusions (f.e something is warm sounding today, bright sounding tomorrow, etc...) but so far I don't recall many reviewers behave like that, including this golden dude.

You also say a good reviewer should be willing to change his opinion(s) in light of new facts, which I agree but in this specific situation, I don't think he is necessarily doing the opposite of that. My first point is like you mentioned in the previous post, he'd acknowledge if a product measures poorly or not - that is accepting the objective fact instead of ignoring or denying it, right? The second point is that we cannot exclusively conclude a scenario like "If something measures poorly but a reviewer thinks its good or call it *fun-sounding*" = against the "new facts" because it doesn't always work like that. More precisely, it cannot be considered a fact in all situations because *inadequate measurements do not always translate to unpleasant/bad listening experiences*. You can see that even sir Amir at times said so in his reviews, f.e you can find his statement in reviews such as [Darkvoice 336] and [Littledot MK3] amplifiers, although in those 2 it will depend on pairing the right headphones to gain good subjective results. So once again, I don't think it's correct to say that when someone has a good subjective opinion of a badly measured product, it means that person is going against the "facts". I honestly think it might be more problematic if he finds it subjectively good but still decide to go against his true feelings for some reason, no?

TL/DR: if someone is interested in objective results only, then as long as a reviewer got his measurements right that person can already see all he looks for, and no amount of subjectivism can alter or change the final result so it won't affect this group of viewers at all. That's why I think it's uncalled that you criticize him for having/sticking with subjective opinions
On the other hand, many viewers will want to know how it subjectively sounds (whether it's related to the topic that not all measurements will always reflect in our actual listening sessions or not is irrelevant) because they might relate to it as well so it's good to offer findings of both sides - like I mentioned above, even Amir offers both objective and subjective remarks nowadays to confirm if his listening experience is easily reflected by the objective measurements - and to me and many others, it's helpful and interesting information.
 
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Tks

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1. I think in the future, it may not be a good idea to test prototypes or unreleased units that are still undergoing modifications. It will not be representative. At least need to state in bold they're prototypes. But I just think it is a bad idea to test prototypes in amongst released models.

2. Ben obviously made the effort to fix the hump etc and at some stage this unit was not available for sale until the fix was made. I think ben mentioned something in that line.

3. It is perhaps Soncoz's fault for not following up this by giving Amit a released unit to test subsequently.

4. There are too many things to read (and a life to lead....)

Aside from thr somewhat symbiotic nature between the parties, where Amir gets cool content, and the company gets a free AP555x report of their product (and user interest if it ends up going well). Theres been cases of flaws fixed before release to retail. But to me, its pretty interesting to see how good the conpany is with respect to their ability to build a product when we know the protitype should perform its best due to being a unit theyre actively giving attention to as opposed to retail units that may never be touched by the development team.

Though I think as ive mentioned before, therr should be some risk for the manufacturer when they send out prototype units since most people default to good intentioned perception. Prototypes/pre release units I think should at least privately have teardown images published the moment retail units go live. This again stems from I believe SMSL not disclosing differening hardware that people eventually got. It would bea good thing to have on record, even if there are minor board changes, its something users can reference months down the line if there sre revisions and performance discrepancies present.


@Tks Yeh, has been since that whole blind testing shitshow thread[/QUOTE]

Never saw the conclusion to that, last I recall he offered to blind test some expensive DAC. Did everyone really botch it up and have the guy get baited into getting himself banned? Or were people following Amirs lead on the ordeal because I recall there was some serious grilling.
 

Honken

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People base their whole identities around the crappy toys and trinkets they buy and then seethe when it's exposed. They personally take offense because they have incorporated ownership of that product into their personality so any slight against the product is a slight against them.
I think there's truth in this idea, but still, it is one thing to become defensive and another to become vile. There is plenty of defensiveness and snide remarks here, for example as @Tks mentions above, @GoldenOne managed to bring out some of the worst of this forum in the past few threads GoldenOne participated in. And I'm not entirely sure I'd lay all the blame for the drama in those threads at GoldenOnes feet.

But, at least it was mostly civil bickering. Call me old fashioned or whatever, I personally care about that. That and the fact that those episodes are outliers in what is otherwise a very knowledgeable, helpful and welcoming community.
 

John B

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It’s a lot harder to discredit someone who banks on objective information… though perhaps possible, based on ones relationship with reality. Hmm… probably should have shown up to philosophy classes. ; )
 

faheem

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People base their whole identities around the crappy toys and trinkets they buy and then seethe when it's exposed. They personally take offense because they have incorporated ownership of that product into their personality so any slight against the product is a slight against them.


Nail on the head. The hobby problem, which is a reflection of bigger and deeper societal issues.
 

ezra_s

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One thing is being ignorant and another, very different, to be a daring fool.

@amirm you are way too nice.
 

sam_adams

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Why is it that this hobby makes people so angry?

When one's beliefs—and therefore choices—are challenged by the truth, the truth in this case being science-based facts, and proven to be wrong, one can only respond in one of two ways, with anger or acceptance. Anger is so much easier because it reinforces one's perceived reality and maintains one's belief system. Acceptance is capitulation to the realization that your life has been wasted believing in something that is false.
 
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