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Resolve's B&K 5128 Headphone Target - you can try the EQ's.....

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Not exactly... and to be clear, I'm personally advocating that we test a variable slope with the 5128 to see where preference boundaries should fall, because I think it's important to reflect that. But that's not really where the compatibility and scalability benefits come into it necessarily. Merely that if you wanted to use DF + slope on another fixture you could, and there would be a good theoretical justification for doing so - plus being able to go back to straight DF for those wanting that, or apply a different slope... there's a common rig-specific baseline to go from. But of course, we're still having internal discussions on how best to move forward with this 5128 target.
Well, yes, that sentence that I bolded in your post, that was what I was trying to get out of you as a justification that I thought you were pursuing. I'm not sure that's totally applicable between rigs though when you come to measure headphones on them. I could be wrong on this, but if the impedance is anatomically wrong of the overall pinnae, in terms of too far off what would be a normal human, then you wouldn't be able to transfer this successfully when measuring a headphone - but I'm open to being corrected on this.

I also think that might not be the optimal starting point for a target curve, you might be missing out on specific room influences or point source influences that might be desirable in headphones - my conjecture.
 
If i’m not mistaken, IEC compliance of a room has quite a few factors associated to construction of the room, allowable pressure and other factors. Anechoic chambers or any room that would conduct testing of audio products in my opinion must go through IEC compliance process to be acceptable.
(that is quite vague though, Amir would have to elucidate the significance of him mentioning IEC compliance in the context of the statement he made)
 
What's an IEC compliant room? That is certainly a gap in my knowledge. I was simply pointing out that it might not be the best starting point to ignore the influence of the room on the initial target measurement. As I understand speaker & room interaction we know we like anechoic flat speakers in a room that has good effective room EQ below the transition zone, so I was really pointing towards those variables being satisfied.....but I suppose there's additional considerations to be taken into account beyond that, which might be associated with your IEC compliant room?
The Harman reference listening room is detailed in some depth in @Sean Olive's paper A New Reference Listening Room for Consumer, Professional, and Automotive Audio Research, and described in brief in section 2.2 of Listener Preferences for In-Room Loudspeaker and Headphone Target Responses, reproduced below:
Olive et al 2013 Reference room.png

The reference listening room has well characterized noise and reverberation, and is pretty analogous to a typical Canadian listening room (and thus likely to a typical American listening room). I am not aware of a pertinent IEC spec for listening rooms (there are IEC specifications for diffuse fields and anechoic chambers, I believe).

Edit: It appears that IEC60268 (testing for sound system equipment) may include room specifications in 60268-13: Listening tests on loudspeakers. I don't have a copy and Dr. Olive didn't cite it in his paper on the Harman room, so I'm not able to verify if the Harman room meets that standard.
 
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The Harman reference listening room is detailed in some depth in @Sean Olive's paper A New Reference Listening Room for Consumer, Professional, and Automotive Audio Research, and described in brief in section 2.2 of Listener Preferences for In-Room Loudspeaker and Headphone Target Responses, reproduced below:
View attachment 276480
The reference listening room has well characterized noise and reverberation, and is pretty analogous to a typical Canadian listening room (and thus likely to a typical American listening room). I am not aware of a pertinent IEC spec for listening rooms (there are IEC specifications for diffuse fields and anechoic chambers, I believe).
Well that's definitely interesting and also re no "pertinent IEC spec for listening rooms" that Amir mentioned, but either way I was really just trying to say a good listening room, which in my understanding would be anywhere where the speakers, room & listening position are located in a way where minimal room EQ is needed to achieve a perfect measured response below the transition zone, without dips or peaks in the response below transition zone. And I guess also equilateral triangle for the listening position.
 
I'm not sure that's totally applicable between rigs though when you come to measure headphones on them. I could be wrong on this, but if the impedance is anatomically wrong of the overall pinnae, in terms of too far off what would be a normal human, then you wouldn't be able to transfer this successfully when measuring a headphone - but I'm open to being corrected on this.

It's rig specific. And the compensated results also won't look the same either. But the concept is absolutely applicable to other rigs. Like... you can do this same thing with GRAS as well.
 
It's rig specific. And the compensated results also won't look the same either. But the concept is absolutely applicable to other rigs. Like... you can do this same thing with GRAS as well.
Well, if you can come up with a Diffuse Field Adjustment that is totally preferable amoungst all your participants, and if that adjustment is then truly validly transferable between different measurement rigs then that is quite a win! If that's the case then that's great. In fact, if that is the case though then you don't need to do any more testing - because all you'd need to do is take the Harman Curve and then see it's difference to the Diffuse Field Curve for the GRAS, then that's your "diffuse field adjustment" that you can apply to any other rig by your explanation......or have I missed something?
 
What body of science? There is none to correlate diffused field response of speakers to listener preference. Indeed, power response that is derived for that shows negative correlation with listening tests.
I think it's important to specifically delineate why this is - power response is reflective of solely radiated sound power, rather than the response at the listening position, which is a function of that, listening distance, and room energy retention. However, listening position response is also not sufficient to predict preference, which is a drum that Sean has been (very rightly) beating for a very long time. It is possible for the average response at the listening position to approximate what has been found to be preferred by the virtue of "two wrongs (not) making a right" when off-axis and on-axis response are both deficient
1680390394033.png

This of course is why we care about directivity in speakers - it is not sufficient that the sum at a point in space match a given target, it is necessary that the directional reflections not be timbrally corrupted. Tests under CEA2034 - including the exceptional data you provide on your Klippel - give us a window into the sound power of a speaker, the directivity, its axial response, and how its response is likely to translate to a "typical" listening situation, and we need all of those inputs (well, maybe less power response, but it does matter for listening position response) to produce a good model of what sounds good.

This is because humans attribute source positions to sounds - they do not arise "out of nowhere", and a lot of the cues we use in localization are frequency response. You're unlikely to be convinced that a speaker in front of you equalized with the difference of your 0 and 180 degree HRTFs (with zero elevation/on axis to the ear) is in fact behind you, but the response will sound truly abhorrent.

Headphone sound is by its nature nonlocalizable (in the absence of DSP or binaural recordings) - we have two sources closely coupled to our ears which track perfectly with our heads as they move, and with stereophonic content we have no directional cues from either interaural differences or our own HRTFs. This is the condition of a diffuse field: sound without direction, and it's why Theile's gestalt model calls for viewing headphone timbre in the context of the head's DFHRTF. Analyzing the sound of a headphone with another compensation is as incorrect as analyzing the sound of a speaker with a frontal or 30 degree FFHRTF - you would certainly get a result there, but it would imply that a "good" speaker would have a response that was very different from what we know listeners actually prefer.
A few papers using diffused field for headphone research doesn't remotely come to same level of research we have from Harman. Diffused field testing of HATS was started when we knew much less about listener preference than we do today. Using it as an element for anything is just wrong. And certainly doesn't point to a "wider body of science." Nothing is remotely as researched as Harman's work across a dozen papers and countless
This really seems to do the work that Theile, Hammershøi, & Møller, among others, have done, a disservice. Their work on headphone targets and binaural sound reproduction wasn't targeted to produce the same outputs as @Sean Olive's work (a metric for "will this headphone typically be preferred"), and so the structure and nature of their experiments were different. Sean and his team have done an immense amount of fantastic work assessing listener preferences, and controlling for a pretty formidable range of variables in the process, and any future work will absolutely be indebted to them for it. The Harman papers are extremely good science, and the disrespect paid to them online is unconscionable.

But that doesn't mean that they are the only interesting avenues of research on headphones, nor does it mean that we should simply discard other significant results because they don't intuitively align with the Harman results. Particularly I want to harp on that "intuitively" - there's a tendency to assume that past research that doesn't instantly click in with the current research programme was erroneous, but highly heterogenous results from Sean and co, to Gaetan Lorho, to Theile, all actually align with a coherent model of how humans assess headphone sound. Treating them as inherently in opposition is in my opinion a really dire mistake.
To use that, you need to use their GRAS fixture. Going anywhere else means you are on your own with no body science defending you other than a couple of papers...
This presumes that by using a different fixture, we are necessarily casting aside all of their work and all of its useful conclusions! This is by no means the case, and by this logic, the same would apply to fixtures not using Todd's modified pinna:
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By necessity and for the better we extrapolate from results rather than treating them as gospel, and ideally we engage in open dialogue with our peers (I've certainly spent far too much time nattering at poor Sean and Todd at this point) to make sure those extrapolations are reasonable.
 
because all you'd need to do is take the Harman Curve and then see it's difference to the Diffuse Field Curve for the GRAS

The problem is... headphones behave differently on different heads/rigs. So it's not directly comparable like that. I'm sure there are trends in where preference variability is the strongest (Harman showed that for bass for example).
 
Well, if you can come up with a Diffuse Field Adjustment that is totally preferable amoungst all your participants, and if that adjustment is then truly validly transferable between different measurement rigs then that is quite a win! If that's the case then that's great. In fact, if that is the case though then you don't need to do any more testing - because all you'd need to do is take the Harman Curve and then see it's difference to the Diffuse Field Curve for the GRAS, then that's your "diffuse field adjustment" that you can apply to any other rig by your explanation......or have I missed something?
This of course presumes two things: 1, that headphone response varies on heads only and precisely the same way the transfer functions of those heads vary in the reference sound field (be it DF or the Harman room). 2, that the difference between a head's HRTF in diffuse field and in the Harman room was consistent across heads.

The latter is probably "true enough" at the level of smoothing used in the Harman target, but the former is far from certain, and is precisely why using a set of random headphones to try to "compensate" a target from one system to another isn't a valid solution.
 
This of course presumes two things: 1, that headphone response varies on heads only and precisely the same way the transfer functions of those heads vary in the reference sound field (be it DF or the Harman room). 2, that the difference between a head's HRTF in diffuse field and in the Harman room was consistent across heads.

The latter is probably "true enough" at the level of smoothing used in the Harman target, but the former is far from certain, and is precisely why using a set of random headphones to try to "compensate" a target from one system to another isn't a valid solution.
Aren't you two arguing with yourself though now if you don't think a Diffuse Field Adjustment is valid between measuring rigs, if that is indeed your justification for looking to tune a Diffuse Field as a starting point in the first place? With regards to point #1 I think I pointed towards that in one of my earlier messages to Resolve, I think I was trying to encroach on that point here:
 
Aren't you two arguing with yourself though now if you don't think a Diffuse Field Adjustment is valid between measuring rigs, if that is indeed your justification for looking to tune a Diffuse Field as a starting point in the first place? With regards to point #1 I think I pointed towards that in one of my earlier messages to Resolve, I think I was trying to encroach on that point here:
From our internal dialogue, in this respect the only thing we have a difference of opinion on is whether we should use a variable slope. I'm not exactly bullish about this but I do think it's worth considering (hence the forum thread to test the waters). And also... I will absolutely concede it is far simpler to just go with a straight slope or even just comp to DF and represent the tilt post-comp, which is another option to consider.

Edit: or do you mean the initial principle of compatibility? In that instance no, it's merely that we have to be careful about what we're saying here and not assume that headphones compensated to DF + 8dB on GRAS will look the same as compensated to DF + 8dB on a 5128.
 
From our internal dialogue, in this respect the only thing we have a difference of opinion on is whether we should use a variable slope. I'm not exactly bullish about this but I do think it's worth considering (hence the forum thread to test the waters). And also... I will absolutely concede it is far simpler to just go with a straight slope or even just comp to DF and represent the tilt post-comp, which is another option to consider.

Edit: or do you mean the initial principle of compatibility? In that instance no, it's merely that we have to be careful about what we're saying here and not assume that headphones compensated to DF + 8dB on GRAS will look the same as DF + 8dB on a 5128.
EDIT: I'm giving you time to edit your post. (I replied too quickly)....will ammend shortly.....
 
From our internal dialogue, in this respect the only thing we have a difference of opinion on is whether we should use a variable slope. I'm not exactly bullish about this but I do think it's worth considering (hence the forum thread to test the waters). And also... I will absolutely concede it is far simpler to just go with a straight slope or even just comp to DF and represent the tilt post-comp, which is another option to consider.

Edit: or do you mean the initial principle of compatibility? In that instance no, it's merely that we have to be careful about what we're saying here and not assume that headphones compensated to DF + 8dB on GRAS will look the same as compensated to DF + 8dB on a 5128.
Yes, I'm more talking about the point you mention in your edit. You made the argument that you were choosing a "DF Adjustment" so that you could port it to other measurement rigs, but then @Mad_Economist refuted that in his last post:
So that's why I was pointing out that you seemed to be arguing amoungst yourselves. Well, not "arguing", but contradicting eachother's points. But then you contradict that same earlier point you made yourself by saying you can't assume that "DF + 8dB on GRAS will look the same as compensated to DF + 8dB on a 5128". No, but I'm just trying to understand where you're both coming from, I'm not trying to invent reasons to refute each point you both make, but you're not appearing to be consistent with what you're saying.

So if you haven't chosen a DF Adjustment as your starting point for reasons of easy porting to future measurement rigs, then you've chosen it for lack of a better option? Which comes back to me talking about you measuring the B&K in actual good listening rooms similar to the Harman work, which was an initial question/idea I had back here:

[EDIT: sleep time, see you on the flip side]
 
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Yes, I'm more talking about the point you mention in your edit. You made the argument that you were choosing a "DF Adjustment" so that you could port it to other measurement rigs, but then @Mad_Economist refuted that in his last post:
So that's why I was pointing out that you seemed to be arguing amoungst yourselves. Well, not "arguing", but contradicting eachother's points. But then you contradict that same earlier point you made yourself by saying you can't assume that "DF + 8dB on GRAS will look the same as compensated to DF + 8dB on a 5128". No, but I'm just trying to understand where you're both coming from, I'm not trying to invent reasons to refute each point you both make, but you're not appearing to be consistent with what you're saying.

So if you haven't chosen a DF Adjustment as your starting point for reasons of easy porting to future measurement rigs, then you've chosen it for lack of a better option? Which comes back to me talking about you measuring the B&K in actual good listening rooms similar to the Harman work, which was an initial question/idea I had back here:

[EDIT: sleep time, see you on the flip side]
I think you're got an assumption underpinning your position here which is leading you astray: the comparability between rigs for a given target implies that the target produces the same response on each rig. This is (almost assuredly) not the case on human heads, yet we aren't searching for a transfer function to transform Blaine impressions into Robbo impressions, are we?

When we say that headphones' subjective response is relative to the listener's DFHRTF, we are saying that if the difference of a headphone's response to the HATS' DFHRTF is different for two systems, two different people would hear that headphone differently. And that is very likely true, and moreover the extent to which that occurs is very likely variable between headphone designs. It's a parameter I'm very eager to take a whack at measuring and publishing, as a matter of fact!
 
Yes, I'm more talking about the point you mention in your edit. You made the argument that you were choosing a "DF Adjustment" so that you could port it to other measurement rigs, but then @Mad_Economist refuted that in his last post:
So that's why I was pointing out that you seemed to be arguing amoungst yourselves. Well, not "arguing", but contradicting eachother's points. But then you contradict that same earlier point you made yourself by saying you can't assume that "DF + 8dB on GRAS will look the same as compensated to DF + 8dB on a 5128". No, but I'm just trying to understand where you're both coming from, I'm not trying to invent reasons to refute each point you both make, but you're not appearing to be consistent with what you're saying.

So if you haven't chosen a DF Adjustment as your starting point for reasons of easy porting to future measurement rigs, then you've chosen it for lack of a better option? Which comes back to me talking about you measuring the B&K in actual good listening rooms similar to the Harman work, which was an initial question/idea I had back here:

[EDIT: sleep time, see you on the flip side]

I guess I'm somewhat confused as to what you're referring to here? What adjustment? There's a particular adjustment that Harman made to ear gain in the later research that was based on listener feedback. I'm not suggesting THAT is what's cross compatible, even if it may shake out that way - that's not the point. I merely find this to be an interesting place to look when assessing preference variation, in part because that's also what Harman found, along with other research into ear gain level. But that doesn't have to do with the idea of using DF as a starting point... unless I'm missing your point here.
 
This presumes that by using a different fixture, we are necessarily casting aside all of their work and all of its useful conclusions! This is by no means the case, and by this logic, the same would apply to fixtures not using Todd's modified pinna:
Oh, it is absolutely the case. It was the core part of Sean's presentation from last year, showing hugely different preference scores if Harman curve is applied to 5128. We have discussed all of this including comments from Sean. See: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ment-talks-from-head-fi-and-sean-olive.27017/

He for example compared my measurements of Dan Clark Stealth:

index.php


To that of 5128:
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Even after matching levels, Sean could not explain the dip as I have circled. Look at the damage this does to the preference score:

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So far I have not seen a single merit to using 5128 with ad-hoc targets. As to different Pinna, the new GRAS one is very close to the one Harman used or you would have seen Sean complain about it as he did regarding 5128. If there is a difference, it is at home in the variability of measurements anyway.
 
This really seems to do the work that Theile, Hammershøi, & Møller, among others, have done, a disservice. Their work on headphone targets and binaural sound reproduction wasn't targeted to produce the same outputs as @Sean Olive's work (a metric for "will this headphone typically be preferred"), and so the structure and nature of their experiments were different.
That's right. So you don't get to run with diffused field and say it has broader back up from science as @Resolve claimed. It simply doesn't. You know that I tried the targets you built for me based on modified DF for my loaner 5128 but I could not make heads or tails out of the measurements with it.
 
Oh, it is absolutely the case. It was the core part of Sean's presentation from last year, showing hugely different preference scores if Harman curve is applied to 5128. We have discussed all of this including comments from Sean. See: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ment-talks-from-head-fi-and-sean-olive.27017/

He for example compared my measurements of Dan Clark Stealth:

index.php


To that of 5128:
index.php


Even after matching levels, Sean could not explain the dip as I have circled. Look at the damage this does to the preference score:

FAja2kvUUAAvYV3
In this case, we are comparing measurements on two systems to a target derived on just one of those systems - it's not especially surprising that the results are disastrous for the model. Sean did attempt to "patch" this by applying the average difference of a sample population of headphones on the two fixtures, which I believe is one of the slides from that presentation, but this approach is fundamentally flawed as aforementioned (which Sean has acknowledged).

As to different Pinna, the new GRAS one is very close to the one Harman used or you would have seen Sean complain about it as he did regarding 5128. If there is a difference, it is at home in the variability of measurements anyway.
But he has, in fact, made those comments, including the slide I presented, which is from his own work. I'm not saying that this in any respect devalues the KB500x or KB501x pinnae, but it is objectively the case that he has shown substantial deviation between that pinna and the pinnae used for his body of research.
 
That's right. So you don't get to run with diffused field and say it has broader back up from science as @Resolve claimed. It simply doesn't. You know that I tried the targets you built for me based on modified DF for my loaner 5128 but I could not make heads or tails out of the measurements with it.

I'd like to again repeat my call to discuss this in a setting where tone is audible (e.g. a phone call or video call), because I suspect that text isn't serving us well here. I'd be happy to have this be done publicly (e.g. a live stream or recording), but I think that we're getting more heated than we would in a voice conversation here.
In response to the quoted, the Harman research may indeed be considered part of the backing for a DFHRTF based headphone target, and I'll quote from Dr. Olive's aforementioned Listener Preferences for In-Room Loudspeaker and Headphone Target Responses here:

"Fig. 17 shows the frequency response of a circumaural headphone measured at DRP when equalized to the preferred target response (black). Also shown is the frequency response of the same headphone equalized to match the flat in-room response of a loudspeaker (dotted), which approximates the commonly practiced diffuse-field (DF) headphone calibration applied to many commercial headphones. Compared to the preferred headphone target curve, the DF calibration would make the headphone sound too thin and bright due to the lower bass and higher treble levels. This was reported in a previous study [6], and has been confirmed again in the current study"
1680396273963.png


The in-room response basis for the Harman target is described by Dr Olive himself as being equivalent to an average DFHRTF (and, naturally, Sean is correct about this, they match quite closely)
 
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Tried the EQ and, wow. I have to say I'm surprised. It's like a veil has been lifted...to reveal my beautiful blushing bride-to-B&K, staring into my soul with those sultry non-existent eyes. I slowly lean in to kiss her, on her perfectly average anthropometric pinna, her supple Shore hardness of 35 sending shivers up my inner...ear, my stereocilia standing to attention, ready for eargasmic ecstasy. She leans in close and whispers seductively into my expectant auditory canal with her racy rectangular mouth..."technicalitease"...which just sends me over the edge. This is The One, what I've been looking for all this time, we're just a perfect acoustic impedance match for each other. She's opened up a whole new world of aural pleasure to me, I can now hear the very structure of sound, revealing to my ears whole new experiences like the magic of totally-nothing-to-do-with-pricing-bias scaling, intra-layering, mircro-, macro-, midi- and yes, even ultra-dynamics. My life is just less...blunted now, less grainy, full to the brim with glorious, semantically ill-defined, resolving detail. (And before anyone asks yes, I of course digitally burnt-in the EQ before testing, leaving my PC on with the settings engaged for at least 100 hours prior to plugging in my headphones, evening out all those nasty digital 1's and 0's to more neutral 0.5's. And naturally burnt my ears in too by listening for a week 24/7 with my headphones on while sleeping, as of course despite what those so-called acoustic scientists and their published research says, real audiophiles know quick switching is bogus and you need long-term listening to judge audio quality.)

All April audio(tom)phoolery aside, this target on my HD560S (a year old, but only sporadically used so like-new pads) does not sound good or natural (2/5, much prefer Oratory's EQ to Harman). It's significantly lacking in bass, combined with the overly elevated 3 kHz peak, this makes it sound thin and bright. In headphones.com-speak, it's...shouty. And a note, if people are needing to add a bass shelf to this EQ, that's a failure of the target, because its whole premise is 'slope instead of shelf'. And if people are needing to reduce the 3 kHz peak (effectively smoothing the curve), that's also a failure of the target, and the claimed superiority of a more 'fine-grained' curve than Harman. A target can have all the supposed theoretical basis you want, but if people don't (1) prefer it, that's moot. And a completely room/speaker-agnostic target doesn't make any sense either, because music is mastered (generally) in good rooms with good speakers (usually with subwoofers and crossovers around the frequency where the Harman bass shelf lies, justifying its use), so (2) any headphone target should indeed have those good room/speaker effects 'baked in' in order to reproduce the kind of sound the artist intended (it's called sound reproduction for a reason). The Harman GRAS target achieves both (1) (confirmed with large scientifically controlled double-blind listening tests no less) and (2) (the former following from the latter, assuming mostly competent mastering engineers and speakers/rooms during audio production). The headphones.com B&K target does neither.
 
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