Replace KH 310's with 120 II or 150?

[flowjm]

Hi All,
I currently own a pair of Neumann KH 310s with two KH 750 subs. As stated in the title, I'm thinking of replacing the 310s with either a pair of 120 IIs or 150s, because I suspect that the 310s (which I bought first) are overkill now that I have the subs, and I'd like to go fully digital. The 150s are more powerful and go down lower, obviously, but will either of those things really benefit me given that I have the two subs, and I don't listen to music at particularly high volumes? My 'feeling' is that the answer is no, and consequently I'm leaning towards the 120 II's due to the lower price, but are there any reasons for choosing the 150s that I might have missed? Thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions.

 

[boxerfan88]

My advice- don’t downgrade!

If you must downgrade, then i suggest the KH150.

Alternatively wait for the KH310II.

That KH310 midrange is really good.

( I am daily user of KH310 + 3rd Party sub. )

 

[AnalogSteph]

What kind of listening distance are we talking? The KH120 II would likely sound a bit mellower in-room due to its gently narrowing directivity towards the treble, while the KH 310 are still going more for a constant dispersion approach. Going by my O110s, constant directivity when coupled with the inevitable widening sub-1 kHz tends to sound a bit V-shaped in-room, so the newer approach seems to be the better one.

While I have encountered few who would contemplate such a downgrade, I don't see why it wouldn't work out OK, even with the "little" 120s. Granted, the 5.5" woofers may not have the same exceptionally low midrange distortion and insane peak levels of the most excellent 3" midrange domes, but they're still pretty darn clean (near Purifi levels) and can take quite a beating. You would lose a bit of maximum sound output, but chances are you're not living in a heavily treated studio and/or listening at super high levels anyway. (You could always get the maximum SPL out of them by crossing them over at 100 to 120 Hz instead of the standard 80.) Even vertical directivity isn't an awful lot worse. You would save a bit of electricity as well (48 W the pair --> 30 W the pair plus auto-standby function).

It's probably not a great idea from an investment point of view, but hey, someone gets a good deal on a pair of KH310s.

 

[flowjm]

Thanks for the comments so far. Would getting rid of the 310s really be a down grade? I thought that the KH 120 IIs and 150s have flatter FR and better horizontal dispersion than the 310s, due to the configuration of the drivers, and aren't the 150s just as powerful? And with the subs, isn't the bass extension of the monitors basically a moot point? I should also mention that I have the MA1 mic for room correction, which is another reason why I like the idea of going fully digital. And finally, I bought the 310s secondhand, so expect to be able to get my money back on them, and I plan to buy their (potential) replacements secondhand as well.

ETA: listening distance is 2–3 metres.

 

[Matias]

Can't you order a pair of KH150 from somewhere with a favorable return policy just in case you decide to return them? Nothing better than to test them yourself and form your own experience and opinion after a couple of weeks.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Any update on this?

 

[flowjm]

Any update on this?

I went for the 120 IIs in the end. A pair came up secondhand for a good price, so I went for them, but I was leaning that way anyway. The electronics and amps appear to be identical to the 150s, and I don't need the bass extension of the latter due to having the two subs. Unfortunately I'm overseas for work at the moment, so I won't get to try them out for a while.

 

[unpluggged]

Why not just get the MA 1 kit and calibrate your KH 310 + KH 750 DSP setup? You would get all the benefits of the DSP monitors (including phase correction), plus the benefits of the KH 310's acoustic design (three-way speaker with sealed cabinet), plus room correction.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

FWIW, i recently switched my 310 (moved them to the secondary system in the living room) with my 120 and use the KH120 Mk 1 now as main speakers. I also moved closer to the speakers (1,5m). I use my 2 KH750 as MA1-processors only, but switched them off - i don't really miss them, because i have a lot of room gain. Also i don't use my PSI AVAA anymore and got rid of some of my acoustic panels, because i don't need them anymore when i am closer to the speakers.

I don't think it sounds better than before, but it is good enough, the setup is simpler and i am just done chasing perfection in a small room. In my experience it is simply not possible to achieve, as long as i don't move to a much bigger room.

I'll try that setup for a while and probably sell the KH750s, the AVAAs and the KH120 and probably get a pair of 150s, because of their narrower dispersion. But i am also still considering the 120 II, because the MK 1 work surprisingly well.

The 310 on the other hand work better than the 120 in the 36sqm living room.

 

[AnalogSteph]

@DJBonoBobo Have you considered leaving one KH750 in the system and moving the other to the living room? Neither KH120 nor KH310 are particularly happy in the deep bass, below about 50 Hz in particular, and I would want a system that can do flat (well, with a slight LF rise à la REW (*)) to 35-40 Hz at least, even if deep bass may only be perfect at the MLP.

*) If you EQ out all your room gain, it may very well sound anemic and wrong.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

@DJBonoBobo Have you considered leaving one KH750 in the system and moving the other to the living room? Neither KH120 nor KH310 are particularly happy in the deep bass, below about 50 Hz in particular, and I would want a system that can do flat (well, with a slight LF rise à la REW (*)) to 35-40 Hz at least, even if deep bass may only be perfect at the MLP.

*) If you EQ out all your room gain, it may very well sound anemic and wrong.

I have posted a lot here in the last years about my search for better sound in my small room, tried a lot of room EQ and treatment options and made many hundreds of measurements. All in all i still think the MA1-results are very good. I have no problems in bass even with the KH120 playing way below 40Hz, because i have a lot of room gain an because i don´t listen loud. In fact, having subwoofers playing down to 20Hz is more pain than pleasure, because i have neighbours and are always afraid to disturb them. I feel better listening without a sub in my environment.
I think i held on to the KH310 too long, their dispersion pattern simply did not work very well in my small room, i think. Their physical size also was holding me back - i have better options for my listening position now. That solved problems i could not solve with the KH310s. That´s why i posted in this thread, to give an example where someone "downgraded" from 310 to 120, although my conditions are different to the OP´s and my living room is an example where the 310 worked better than the 120.

BTW, in my case, i currently need both KH750 for the MA1 multichannel extension to work with analog monitors.

 

[flowjm]

Why not just get the MA 1 kit and calibrate your KH 310 + KH 750 DSP setup? You would get all the benefits of the DSP monitors (including phase correction), plus the benefits of the KH 310's acoustic design (three-way speaker with sealed cabinet), plus room correction.

That's what I had/have actually, but as I said, it seemed to be a bit overkill to use the 750s with the 310s. The current set up of a pair of 120 IIs with a pair of 750s is all digital with DSP, is essentially full range and cost the same as I paid for the 310s (I bought everything secondhand).

 

[opeth]

I hope this is the right place to ask my question.

I’m considering using Neumann KH310s as hi-fi speakers in my living room, which is approximately 24m² (4 x 6 meters) and includes typical furniture like armchairs, work desks, a TV, and a rug.

I definitely want to incorporate room correction. I see two options: either purchasing the KH750 with the MA1 system or using a third-party solution like MiniDSP with UMIK.

Which option is more practical, user-friendly, and provides better sound quality for casual listening?

 

[vsch]

I hope this is the right place to ask my question.

I’m considering using Neumann KH310s as hi-fi speakers in my living room, which is approximately 24m² (4 x 6 meters) and includes typical furniture like armchairs, work desks, a TV, and a rug.

I definitely want to incorporate room correction. I see two options: either purchasing the KH750 with the MA1 system or using a third-party solution like MiniDSP with UMIK.

Which option is more practical, user-friendly, and provides better sound quality for casual listening?

If practicality is a concern, then the MA-1 kit should be a no-brainer. I've never used it, but it should give you impressive results with minimal effort. There are some threads on ASR that praise the sound quality it delivers. Latency is also much lower with MA-1 than with a miniDSP (which may not matter much if you are using it as a hifi system).

FWIW, I have a 2.1 setup at my desk consisting of Genelec 8030c speakers and an Arendal 1961 1S sub, manually integrated and room-corrected with a miniDSP Flex. To my ears, the system sounds great. However, I chose the miniDSP route over Genelec’s GLM solution only because I wanted to: i) learn how to do room-correction and sub-alignment via REW; ii) use a hifi sub instead of an expensive Genelec sub; and iii), because I appreciate the relative openness and flexibility of the miniDSP. However, I think the proprietary systems of Neumann and Genelec deliver similar or even better sound while requiring much less effort.

 

[opeth]

If practicality is a concern, then the MA-1 kit should be a no-brainer.
...

Yes, that’s one concern. On the other hand, I’m wondering if I actually need a subwoofer with the KH310s and whether it would provide any benefits beyond DSP.

A pair of used KH310s recently became available at a good price, so I’ve decided to purchase them. However, since they lack integrated DSP, I’m currently exploring better solutions to address this issue.

Thanks for your input.

 

[vsch]

Yes, that’s one concern. On the other hand, I’m wondering if I actually need a subwoofer with the KH310s and whether it would provide any benefits beyond DSP.

A pair of used KH310s recently became available at a good price, so I’ve decided to purchase them. However, since they lack integrated DSP, I’m currently exploring better solutions to address this issue.

Thanks for your input.

The KH310s are certainly excellent speakers and, depending on your bass and SPL requirements, may suffice without a sub.

Hence, you could buy a miniDSP Flex or miniDSP Flex HT(x) (if you also want HDMI eARC support). This solution would give you plenty of advantages and flexibility:

• The miniDSP Flex measures very well as a DAC (see @amirm 's review) and offers a decent amount of input connections.
• If you want to stream music, you can easily add a WiiM Pro streamer.
• You can do room correction either manually with a UMIK-1 & REW or, alternatively, buy the Dirac license and do room correction semi-automatically with UMIK-1 & Dirac.
• If you want to add one or two subwoofer(s) later, the miniDSP Flex can act as an active crossover allowing you to perfectly integrate and time-/phase-align any decent hifi subwoofer(s) (hifi subs tend to offer better bang for the buck than studio subs).
• The miniDSP can store 4 presets, which is handy if you want to quickly access different listening profiles; e.g. one for listening at normal volumes, and one with boosted bass and treble for low volumes.
• It even comes with a cheap remote control.

I don't think that in terms of sound quality you would make any meaningful compromises with this solution compared to the MA-1 kit. But if you are going to buy a sub anyway, the KH750 seems to be competent and the MA-1 kit is probably more straightforward/practical to setup than the above miniDSP-based solution.

Finally, I saw in other threads that some members recommend the ADI-2 FS DAC. This may be an alternative to the miniDSP Flex if you want a more professional looking DAC (with an integrated headphone amp) and are sure not to use any subwoofer(s) in the future. It offers a 5-band PEQ and a loudness function but (to the best of my knowledge) cannot act as an active crossover for subwoofer integration.
At the time I bought my 2.1 desk system, I had the ADI-2 FS DAC initially on the radar but ultimately decided against it, as it i) is more expensive than the miniDSP Flex, ii) has a less flexible equalizer, and iii) cannot act as an active crossover for subwoofer integration. The loudness feature seems to be nice, but I can easily replicate it with the 4 presets in the miniDSP.

I hope this is helpful. Enjoy the fantastic KH310s!

 

[opeth]

That’s an outstanding reply, thank you for taking the time to explain everything so clearly!

It seems that adding the KH750 + MA1 + WiiM Pro Plus makes more sense for me, especially since it’s similarly priced to the miniDSP SHD (for Roon, Tidal)

 

[levimax]

That’s an outstanding reply, thank you for taking the time to explain everything so clearly!

It seems that adding the KH750 + MA1 + WiiM Pro Plus makes more sense for me, especially since it’s similarly priced to the miniDSP SHD (for Roon, Tidal)

Another alternative to consider is using a PC and a multi-channel interface. I have some KH310's and 4 sub woofers and a Moto Ultralite MK5 interface. The PC and interface can do everything a miniDSP can and much more due to its vastly greater processing power. It can also measure, store, play, edit, stream, rip, or do pretty much anything else you would ever need to do with a music file or crossovers or filters. The software like REW, Foobar, Rephase, etc. are all free and there are also fancy paid software like DIRAC that run on PC's. The only problem is there is a learning curve to set up and use the software but there are plenty of online resources. The advantages are flexibility and lower cost for the subs.

 

[boxerfan88]

^^ Yes yes, I use PC + foobar + multichannel DAC to playback on KH310 + 3rd party sub.

I use foobar convolver to perform both room_correction & sub_crossover processing.

Also implemented nice eye candy to go along with great sound.

The learning curve can be steep though… yet fulfilling.