Recommendations needed for a replacement for a miniDSP active crossover

[gnarly]

Not sure whether this is the right forum. . .

I need to replace my miniDSP 4x10HD. It works well enough in providing active crossovers for my 3-way speakers, but it's just not reliable. This is my system:

FLAC files on my PC > LAN to Squeezebox Touch > co-axial SPDIF to miniDSP > balanced outputs to 6-channel amplifier > 3-way stereo speakers

I use the miniDSP to implement LR 4th order crossovers with time alignment and a few dB of gain adjustment and PEQ. It's about the right level of complexity for my simple, non-EE mind.

Hi, my favorite solution for this would be Q-Sys running on a Core110f.
I've used miniDSP's openDRC DA-8 and a bank of openDRC DI's. And Prosound processors ranging from the dcx2496 and dbx units, up to high spec like the Linea Research stuff. And J-River, ras-pi, for PC based processing.
Q-Sys is the easiest to use, most flexible, most capable product I've found yet.

It's an open architecture type processor, which means you build a schematic in PC software that puts the schematic into the hardware that Q-Sys calls a 'Core'.
It's so quick to do, i drew up a couple of quick examples given your system.

First one has USB inputs that could take steams direct from PC, and analog inputs from your Squeezebox (no direct digital inputs available other than USB or Dante)
Analog inputs are mic/line, so your phono amp would certainly work set to line, and the phono cartridge might even work without an amp set to mic, leaving you free to put in whatever RIAA EQ etc you might want.
I stuck in a volume control, a global EQ for input, and then a three-way xover.
The line outs are balanced (or unbal) to your amps.
Every component in the schematic expands when clicked on, to give access to settings.
I expanded the xover for example.

Next one is same thing, but I added EQs on each of the three xover output sections, and put in delays as well.
Just to show how modular schematics are....you can put as little or as mind boggling much as you want into them.
I expanded the input EQ on this one for different expansion example.

QSys has easy to follow online training. I found it almost fun (which I couldn't believe Lol)
But it will take a small bit of learning.

Used Core110f's have been going for around $800-$1200 on ebay lately. They have 8x8 analog I/O, with another 8 channels individually configurable either way.
They are FIR capable...but 4-6k taps per channel is max depending on number of channels. All qsys runs at 48 kHz only.
The number components and their configurability is again mind-blowing (i think that's what made the training fun)
You can even put a dual channel FFT into the schematic !
Custom unlimited presets can be built to control any parameter or groups of parameters in the schematic.
Which can be put into a custom remotes, on any PC or IOS type devices.

Anyway, I know many folks will be put off by 48KHz only etc, and the need to learn how to build schematics, but my experience is I'll take qsys and a Core over ANY piece of hardware I've used or even read about. (there are various Core models, but a 110f is the most common in home audio use) fwiw

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

I really think Dualazmak has the secret sauce here. You can use JRiver, Ekio, and even add Dirac Multichannel, have it feed a multichannel USB DAC and never look back. If you get a trial version of Ekio you will find its interface is extremely similar to miniDSP's software. As an owner of the 2X4 HD, I speak from experience. The one other multichannel DAC other than the Octo (which I own), and the Topping DM7 (which will only accept USB input) is the Motu MK 5 Ultralite which is in the same price class as the DM7. It will output 10 channels rather than 8. Why could that be important? Well, if you ever decide you want to delve into an Atmos system, and the lord of the Atmos copyright ever decides it can be decoded on a PC by a program like JRiver. all you would need to do is upgrade to that version of JRiver, let it accept the streaming Atmos audio feeds from Tidal, Netflix and Amazon Prime, and just send it to the Motu via USB LPCM where you will get full 10 channel D to A conversion to send to your 5.1.4 Atmos system amplifiers. Would be a really simple, easy, and economical way to get into ATMOS.

I hadn't realised that JRiver uses a licence model rather than a subscription model. I'm happy to buy a licence as long as I don't get held to ransom eventually. It's not entirely clear to me as yet, but it looks like one licence lasts indefinitely and the user has the option of buying newer versions as desired. This is fine with me as long as they don't sneakily disable earlier versions. It also looks like it won't conflict with my Squeezeboxes, so I can use JRiver in my listening room while a Squeezebox in another room is streaming via Logitech Media Server over my network.

I assume that JRiver could run on my PC while I use a tablet or smartphone as a wireless remote control. Is this the case? The Topping DM7 has a volume control, but it would be better to use one remote than two.

I like software that lives on my hard disc, so that's a plus for JRiver and EKIO. From looking at the Motu 8D, it seems that Motu uses a "web app" which I assume means that I have no music if my Internet connection or Motu's servers are down. EKIO is interesting also due to its similarity to miniDSP's plug-in as you note - I'd hope to be able to dial in my miniDSP settings (crossover topologies, gains, delays, PEQs) and be running quite quickly - and definitely without having to start from scratch and having to re-learn how to use REW.

I have no idea how JRiver connects to EKIO, but I assume that this is straightforward.

I know next to nothing about USB audio, but I assume that, at the PC end, this means no more than having a USB3 output available. I think the Topping DM7 would be fine, as long as it uses good quality components that don't fail after a couple of years.

Thanks for your comments about the extra channels of the Motu Mk5. I have a separate HT system in another room. I thought about adding Atmos speakers to it, but access to the ceiling is too difficult. The room is full of compromises anyway since it's our living room, so I try not to get too obsessive over it. Also, my wife has made it very clear that we already have enough speakers in this house.

In summary, my current system:

PC hard disc > Logitech Media Server > LAN to Squeezebox > SPDIF to miniDSP > balanced to multi-channel amp > 3-way speakers

could become:

PC hard disc > JRiver > EKIO > USB3 to Topping DM7 > balanced to multi-channel amp > 3-way speakers

This looks very promising: reasonably straightforward, no hardware projects, no esoteric programming, a step up from miniDSP's DACs, no new "black boxes" to annoy my wife (actually a reduction of one), and achievable at a sensible price.

Sounds almost too good to be true! What am I missing. . . ?

 

[fpitas]

I believe some people on the site use the DCX2496

I did for years. I replaced it with an RCF DX 2006, which I like a whole lot better. But the DCX was cheap enough.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

Hi, my favorite solution for this would be Q-Sys running on a Core110f.
I've used miniDSP's openDRC DA-8 and a bank of openDRC DI's. And Prosound processors ranging from the dcx2496 and dbx units, up to high spec like the Linea Research stuff. And J-River, ras-pi, for PC based processing.
Q-Sys is the easiest to use, most flexible, most capable product I've found yet.

It's an open architecture type processor, which means you build a schematic in PC software that puts the schematic into the hardware that Q-Sys calls a 'Core'.
It's so quick to do, i drew up a couple of quick examples given your system.

First one has USB inputs that could take steams direct from PC, and analog inputs from your Squeezebox (no direct digital inputs available other than USB or Dante)
Analog inputs are mic/line, so your phono amp would certainly work set to line, and the phono cartridge might even work without an amp set to mic, leaving you free to put in whatever RIAA EQ etc you might want.
I stuck in a volume control, a global EQ for input, and then a three-way xover.
The line outs are balanced (or unbal) to your amps.
Every component in the schematic expands when clicked on, to give access to settings.
I expanded the xover for example.

View attachment 318762



Next one is same thing, but I added EQs on each of the three xover output sections, and put in delays as well.
Just to show how modular schematics are....you can put as little or as mind boggling much as you want into them.
I expanded the input EQ on this one for different expansion example.

View attachment 318772


QSys has easy to follow online training. I found it almost fun (which I couldn't believe Lol)
But it will take a small bit of learning.

Used Core110f's have been going for around $800-$1200 on ebay lately. They have 8x8 analog I/O, with another 8 channels individually configurable either way.
They are FIR capable...but 4-6k taps per channel is max depending on number of channels. All qsys runs at 48 kHz only.
The number components and their configurability is again mind-blowing (i think that's what made the training fun)
You can even put a dual channel FFT into the schematic !
Custom unlimited presets can be built to control any parameter or groups of parameters in the schematic.
Which can be put into a custom remotes, on any PC or IOS type devices.

Anyway, I know many folks will be put off by 48KHz only etc, and the need to learn how to build schematics, but my experience is I'll take qsys and a Core over ANY piece of hardware I've used or even read about. (there are various Core models, but a 110f is the most common in home audio use) fwiw

Thank you very much for taking the time to do this for me. It looks very versatile and like a very much-simplified version of Audio Weaver that the dspNexus 2/8 uses. To give you a little extra context, I had to look up "taps", so you may still be over-estimating my abilities somewhat!

There's certainly some extra learning involved and the ability to include my turntable gives it an advantage over the EKIO route, but at about twice the total cost. I'll have to spend some time with the User Guide.

 

[voodooless]

From looking at the Motu 8D, it seems that Motu uses a "web app" which I assume means that I have no music if my Internet connection or Motu's servers are down.

That is not the case. Not sure how useful the 8D is for you though, it doesn’t have a lot of analog IO.

 

[gnarly]

Thank you very much for taking the time to do this for me. It looks very versatile and like a very much-simplified version of Audio Weaver that the dspNexus 2/8 uses. To give you a little extra context, I had to look up "taps", so you may still be over-estimating my abilities somewhat!

There's certainly some extra learning involved and the ability to include my turntable gives it an advantage over the EKIO route, but at about twice the total cost. I'll have to spend some time with the User Guide.

You're very welcome.
I looked at the dspNexus 2/8. Nice unit, geared for home audio.
I can say without a doubt though, it is very, very, ( i need to say 'very' about 10x Lol) simplified, compared to qsys...
Please don't let the rudimentary schematics I showed you be any indication of what qsys can do.

The thing with qsys is that it is made for large installs. The Core110f suggested can run several home systems by itself.
It can have two 8x8 USB soundcards in a design, thus providing a 16ch DAC using all analog flex channels as outputs ( with only 8 analog inputs )

Along with 128x128 networked channels using streaming options below....including video.
An example of what I mean when I say "very" much less simplified (options that never need be used, but are there if one ever wants)

Another example....here's a list of available EQs/ filters

Anyway, the thing is...qsys doesn't outdate, requiring new hardware if you make system changes. Redraw whatever design you want, for whatever new system setup you have, or whatever new processing you want to try. And QSC is continually updating the qsys software and capabilitie,s as more AV companies partner with it...at no fee.

 

[fpitas]

I hadn't realised that JRiver uses a licence model rather than a subscription model. I'm happy to buy a licence as long as I don't get held to ransom eventually. It's not entirely clear to me as yet, but it looks like one licence lasts indefinitely and the user has the option of buying newer versions as desired. This is fine with me as long as they don't sneakily disable earlier versions. It also looks like it won't conflict with my Squeezeboxes, so I can use JRiver in my listening room while a Squeezebox in another room is streaming via Logitech Media Server over my network.

I assume that JRiver could run on my PC while I use a tablet or smartphone as a wireless remote control. Is this the case? The Topping DM7 has a volume control, but it would be better to use one remote than two.

I like software that lives on my hard disc, so that's a plus for JRiver and EKIO. From looking at the Motu 8D, it seems that Motu uses a "web app" which I assume means that I have no music if my Internet connection or Motu's servers are down. EKIO is interesting also due to its similarity to miniDSP's plug-in as you note - I'd hope to be able to dial in my miniDSP settings (crossover topologies, gains, delays, PEQs) and be running quite quickly - and definitely without having to start from scratch and having to re-learn how to use REW.

I have no idea how JRiver connects to EKIO, but I assume that this is straightforward.

I know next to nothing about USB audio, but I assume that, at the PC end, this means no more than having a USB3 output available. I think the Topping DM7 would be fine, as long as it uses good quality components that don't fail after a couple of years.

Thanks for your comments about the extra channels of the Motu Mk5. I have a separate HT system in another room. I thought about adding Atmos speakers to it, but access to the ceiling is too difficult. The room is full of compromises anyway since it's our living room, so I try not to get too obsessive over it. Also, my wife has made it very clear that we already have enough speakers in this house.

In summary, my current system:

PC hard disc > Logitech Media Server > LAN to Squeezebox > SPDIF to miniDSP > balanced to multi-channel amp > 3-way speakers

could become:

PC hard disc > JRiver > EKIO > USB3 to Topping DM7 > balanced to multi-channel amp > 3-way speakers

This looks very promising: reasonably straightforward, no hardware projects, no esoteric programming, a step up from miniDSP's DACs, no new "black boxes" to annoy my wife (actually a reduction of one), and achievable at a sensible price.

Sounds almost too good to be true! What am I missing. . . ?

A friend has used JRiver as a crossover/EQ for years. He has no complaints. It does take a bit of setting up, but any active crossover will.

 

[3ll3d00d]

I like software that lives on my hard disc, so that's a plus for JRiver and EKIO. From looking at the Motu 8D, it seems that Motu uses a "web app" which I assume means that I have no music if my Internet connection or Motu's servers are down.

Jriver has a DSP engine so you don't need ekio
Motu's interface is served by the device itself so no dependency on external devices
Jriver online features (such as information for cd/BD ripping) that require use of their servers now last for a few versions (means 2-3 years roughly), the application itself licensed in perpetuity for that version (some details in https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,136204.0.html)
Imv qsys is not an option for this case given the OP's stated level/capability, it's a pretty complicated piece of software for a simple crossover

Minidsp surely the most plug and play out of all of these though so if reliability of minidsp is the concern, not sure that things are going to get more reliable via any of these of options

 

[gnarly]

Imv qsys is not an option for this case given the OP's stated level/capability, it's a pretty complicated piece of software for a simple crossover

Minidsp surely the most plug and play out of all of these though so if reliability of minidsp is the concern, not sure that things are going to get more reliable via any of these of options

I can understand your view on qsys. It looks daunting with quick looks.
But it is really so easy....part of the reason it's stormed proaudio installations.
I spent as much time learning my miniDSP units as I did how to use qsys.

At the most simple level of speaker management, in addition to crossovers ....delays, levels, output EQs, and polarities are also required.
I like how I can put each of those components into qsys separately to help me realize what are the basic fundamentals, and what they actually do.

I'll also say qsys is built for commercial reliability. You know, the show must go on kinda stuff.

Anyway, in my mind it all comes down to what OP wants...cause i don't think qsys is any more complex at all than other solutions...
....in fact, I'd say it's even simpler to implement than a PC to j-river to Eiko to DAC flow.
(i know cause i"ve gone that route, albeit skipping Eiko and just using J-River processing)

The fact this type gear shows up used, as commercial, educational, governmental institutions retrofit (ugh build new facilities) ...
....for prices below the numbnuts $$$ home audio stuff.....
......is a wonderful blessing to we home audio enthusiasts with a desire to explore.
I think anybody with an active multiway system fits this bill.

 

[dualazmak]

PC hard disc > JRiver > EKIO > USB3 to Topping DM7 > balanced to multi-channel amp > 3-way speakers

This is just what I do in my multichannel setup! (I added L&R subwoofers and supertweeters to 3-way SP, though.)

The latest system diagrams look somewhat complicated for your first glance, but the concept and routing are as simple enough as you pointed above.

Jriver has a DSP engine so you don't need ekio

Yes, I know well JRiver has DSP engine and even I have tested it several times.

I still like and stick to independent DSP EKIO (robust and nice GUI), however, since I need system-wide one-stop DSP center (in my case EKIO) which can receive all the digital audio signals from any of the audio-visual software players (including JRiver, Roon if you like, web browsers, etc., etc.) through ASIO and/or WASAPI Exclusive routing using dominating ASIO4ALL together with VB Audio Virtual/HiFi Cables (capable of 8-Ch I/O).

Maybe, you can eliminate ASIO4ALL (and hopefully VB Audio Cables) if you would like sticking to WASAPI exclusive routing.
(My personal rationales and "historical" background for sticking to all-in-ASIO-routing can be found here.)

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

The mists may have cleared a little more.

Perhaps the simpler of the two options under consideration is:

PC hard disc > JRiver > USB3 to Topping DM7 > balanced to multi-channel amp > 3-way speakers

I like this option because it uses one well-known and well-established piece of software and one relatively straightforward piece of hardware, albeit it with no phono input.. If JRiver can do the DSP magic as well, that shifts that part of the learning curve from EKIO to JR, and then it's down to what kind of job JR does and how easy it is to set up. JR has a wiki and forum, so support for the novice user is probably decent. The hardware is "just" a multi-channel DAC which can be replaced without too much grief - no superfluous features and close to a zero learning curve. I would expect its likely failure points to be the display and the remote.

I've been assuming that any spare USB3 port on my PC will be suitable for connection to the DM7. Is this correct, or would it need a soundcard with a USB output? Does the DM7 just show up as an external drive and JR takes care of the routing?

The Q-Sys option isn't quite as clear-cut yet. I suspect that I would still need something like JRiver in order to serve up music files via USB to the Core 110f unless Q-Sys figures that out. The alternative would be to use the analogue outputs from the Squeezebox, but it would be nice to use better DACs. Also, presumably analogue inputs to the Core 110f are digitised prior to DSP, which seems a regressive step. So the system would look like this:

PC hard disc > JRiver or Q-Sys > USB to Core 110f > balanced to multi-channel amp > 3-way speakers

or

PC hard disc > Logitech Media Server > LAN to Squeezebox > analogue unbalanced to Core 110f > balanced to multi-channel amp > 3-way speakers

I find that writing something down helps to clarify my level of understanding - I think I still have some way to go. I find myself agreeing with 3II3d00d in that the Core 110f isn't the right option for me. At a more practical level, I don't have the necessary real estate for a 19" piece of equipment and my turntable, and the DM7 would have a higher WAF.

​

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

I still like and stick to independent DSP EKIO (robust and nice GUI), however, since I need system-wide one-stop DSP center (in my case EKIO) which can receive all the digital audio signals from any of the audio-visual software players (including JRiver, Roon if you like, web browsers, etc., etc.) through ASIO and/or WASAPI Exclusive routing using dominating ASIO4ALL together with VB Audio Virtual/HiFi Cables (capable of 8-Ch I/O).

Maybe, you can eliminate ASIO4ALL (and hopefully VB Audio Cables) if you would like sticking to WASAPI exclusive routing.
(My personal rationales and "historical" background for sticking to all-in-ASIO-routing can be found here.)

I'm a simple fellow and have learned over the years that simple is usually best. All I really need to do is to stream FLAC. Phono would be a bonus, but I may move my turntable to another room eventually. Any other digital AV stuff (such as YouTube et al) never makes it beyond my PC and its little desk-top audio system. I'm quite happy with that. A final consideration is that I'm no spring chicken and one day someone is going to have to sort out the mess I leave behind. I would hate to see my six-channel amp and speakers end up in a garage sale because my executor can't make them work.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I hadn't realised that JRiver uses a licence model rather than a subscription model. I'm happy to buy a licence as long as I don't get held to ransom eventually. It's not entirely clear to me as yet, but it looks like one licence lasts indefinitely and the user has the option of buying newer versions as desired. This is fine with me as long as they don't sneakily disable earlier versions. It also looks like it won't conflict with my Squeezeboxes, so I can use JRiver in my listening room while a Squeezebox in another room is streaming via Logitech Media Server over my network.

I assume that JRiver could run on my PC while I use a tablet or smartphone as a wireless remote control. Is this the case? The Topping DM7 has a volume control, but it would be better to use one remote than two.

I like software that lives on my hard disc, so that's a plus for JRiver and EKIO. From looking at the Motu 8D, it seems that Motu uses a "web app" which I assume means that I have no music if my Internet connection or Motu's servers are down. EKIO is interesting also due to its similarity to miniDSP's plug-in as you note - I'd hope to be able to dial in my miniDSP settings (crossover topologies, gains, delays, PEQs) and be running quite quickly - and definitely without having to start from scratch and having to re-learn how to use REW.

I have no idea how JRiver connects to EKIO, but I assume that this is straightforward.

I know next to nothing about USB audio, but I assume that, at the PC end, this means no more than having a USB3 output available. I think the Topping DM7 would be fine, as long as it uses good quality components that don't fail after a couple of years.

Thanks for your comments about the extra channels of the Motu Mk5. I have a separate HT system in another room. I thought about adding Atmos speakers to it, but access to the ceiling is too difficult. The room is full of compromises anyway since it's our living room, so I try not to get too obsessive over it. Also, my wife has made it very clear that we already have enough speakers in this house.

In summary, my current system:

PC hard disc > Logitech Media Server > LAN to Squeezebox > SPDIF to miniDSP > balanced to multi-channel amp > 3-way speakers

could become:

PC hard disc > JRiver > EKIO > USB3 to Topping DM7 > balanced to multi-channel amp > 3-way speakers

This looks very promising: reasonably straightforward, no hardware projects, no esoteric programming, a step up from miniDSP's DACs, no new "black boxes" to annoy my wife (actually a reduction of one), and achievable at a sensible price.

Sounds almost too good to be true! What am I missing. . . ?

Yes. You buy JRiver and the license never expires. Many of the updates from version to version are trivial or not applicable to my use case. Eventually, I think, JRiver will decode Atmos because sooner or later the people who hold the copyright to those codecs will realize there is more money to be made using it as a mass market product rather than as part of some high end man cave dedicated receiver.

You may need to use an Asio driver to connect Jriver to Ekio. Dualazmak's superb thread will give you step by step detailed instruction on how to do this. Also, if you should decide to buy Dirac along with DLBC multichannel, you will find it actually sets the high/low pass crossovers between the subs and mains. You could then just use the PEQ in JRiver instead of using Ekio's to replace the miniDSP's functionality.

 

[mccarty350]

Has anyone implemented an LX521.4 crossover using EKIO here? Are the q values ands settings in EKIO one for one the same as implemented in a minidsp 4x10HD?

 

[3ll3d00d]

If JRiver can do the DSP magic as well, that shifts that part of the learning curve from EKIO to JR, and then it's down to what kind of job JR does and how easy it is to set up. JR has a wiki and forum, so support for the novice user is probably decent

Not hard to setup, DSP UI not as friendly as some others. I wrote https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,129609.0.html to make this sort of thing easier but your setup is fairly simple so easy enough to do in jriver alone. If you get something like a Motu interface then you can handle the analogue input for a turntable as well.

 

[mccarty350]

Did anyone nail down the proper way to convert the minidsp q values into the ones defined by driver?

 

[voodooless]

Did anyone nail down the proper way to convert the minidsp q values into the ones defined by driver?

Why would that be useful at all?

 

[mccarty350]

Why would that be useful at all?

That was a total phone induced fat finger. I would be wondering what the hell I was talking about too.

That was to read: Did anyone nail down the proper way to convert the minidsp q values into the ones defined by jriver?

Jriver uses nonstandard Q value calculations which was one of the impediments to generating a crossover directly in the Jriver parametric EQ module.

Hopefully this makes much more sense than my completely uninterpretable post.

 

[MAB]

That was a total phone induced fat finger. I would be wondering what the hell I was talking about too.

That was to read: Did anyone nail down the proper way to convert the minidsp q values into the ones defined by jriver?

Jriver uses nonstandard Q value calculations which was one of the impediments to generating a crossover directly in the Jriver parametric EQ module.

Hopefully this makes much more sense than my completely uninterpretable post.

Yes, care should be taken:

Parametric Equalizer - wiki.jriver.com

wiki.jriver.com

DSP Studio asks the user to enter a value for Q when entering a shelf filter however it is important to realise this label is incorrect. This value is actually S as per the RBJ cookbook.

It is extremely important (for correct results) to realise this fact as most software that generates such filters will use Q as per its correct definition. You will need to manually calculate S from the given Q instead.

S = 1/((((1/Q)^2-2)/((10^(d/40))+1/(10^(d/40))))+1)

 

[mccarty350]

I'm trying to find a calculator for such a thing. I am not at all confident I could solve for Q in that equation but thank you for the formula.