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PS Audio speaks

Gorganzola

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#23
Well I agree with Paul about one thing: that subjectivists and objectivists tend to be dismissive of each other. This I can attest given I visit both sites that objectivist, (such as ASR), and those that are subjectivist..

Personally I believe there is a correlation between measurements and subjective listening results. First, many subjectivists who simply reject that idea that measurements have any relevance at all. But at the same time if I admit I can (often) hear differences, I incur the mockery of many objectivists who believe I that I'm kidding myself.

(Its ironic that some objectivists who so admire extraordinarily fine measurements and the same time deny that one can hear the difference between decent measurements and great ones.)

My frustration and regret is that so few pursue a middle road that says that measurements matter but that are not generally interpreted properly. Dr. Geddes was pointing in that direction in his researches that suggest the high order harmonic distortions sound bad. For my part I personally believe that the essence is that 2nd and 3rd order harmonics sound good. It almost seems that both subjectivists and objectivists alike are hesitant say the distortion can ever sound good.
 

BDWoody

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#24
(Its ironic that some objectivists who so admire extraordinarily fine measurements and the same time deny that one can hear the difference between decent measurements and great ones.)
Because there is no proof of it to date.
 

ahofer

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#26
In any case, it doesn't seem a good commercial practice for an audio manufacturer not listening to their products...knowing that they will be judged mostly by listening.
Absolutely. But an even better commercial practice would be to listen unsighted, and incorporate what they learn from it. Yet few of these hucksters do.
 

Jim Matthews

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#27
This is an important distinction.

It seems perfectly reasonable to attack a product that delivers less (or the same quality) for a higher price as in the Lexicon/Oppo scandal.

*however *

Suppose I have two equally priced products, one having superior performance stats but I prefer the other. Is there any reason to impugn this choice?
 

Thomas savage

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#28
Absolutely. But an even better commercial practice would be to listen unsighted, and incorporate what they learn from it. Yet few of these hucksters do.
Too hard , and totally unnecessary ! Paul's accountant can testify to this .

McClowan , even the auto correct on my phone knows Paul's true nature it seems ..
 

ta240

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#29
I always wonder wth is going on with all the stuff he has in the background of his videos
He wanders around the building when they are closed and picks areas to sit for the taping.

That is one of the more interesting backdrops. They do sell some music, perhaps it has something to do with that?

EDIT: It is their mastering room.

Absolutely. But an even better commercial practice would be to listen unsighted, and incorporate what they learn from it. Yet few of these hucksters do.
Maybe he's like Amir and can listen without expectation bias :oops:

Says he has two preamps that measure identically, but one sounds good, the other does not. Measurements do not matter -- so far as knowing if something sounds good or not.
Without knowing exactly what measurements they did and how they did them, they could have just missed the differences.

Amps here are still tested on a resistive load rather than a capacitive load so it isn't unusual to cut corners when doing measurements.
 
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Katji

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#30
[ PS Audio speaks ]


He speaks a lot.


Props to make him look credible, same as that annoying Dutch guy whose name I can't remember how to spell.
Actually I think of him as Hans Bekhuyzen now.
 
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#32
Absolutely. But an even better commercial practice would be to listen unsighted, and incorporate what they learn from it. Yet few of these hucksters do.
Just for the sake of debate, why is it so relevant since no customer listens to the products unsighted?
 

abdo123

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#33
Just for the sake of debate, why is it so relevant since no customer listens to the products unsighted?
expectation and confirmation bias.

you expect the more expensive product to sound good.

you expect the product your friend recommended to sound good.

you expect a product from a brand you have long been buying from to sound good.

.etc .etc
 
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#34
expectation and confirmation bias.

you expect the more expensive product to sound good.

you expect the product your friend recommended to sound good.

you expect a product from a brand you have long been buying from to sound good.

.etc .etc
Are we sure they are bad? Aren't they part of the overall experience?
I wouldn't like my Tannoy Gold 7 so much if they weren't a joy for the eyes, I am fully aware of that.
On the flip side, I have a Rega Planet CD player that looks s*** but I like the sound.

While I totally understand that the snake oil needs to be drained out, a product experience is mainly sound, but not only. Look and expectations are part of the experience.
 
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#36
No body is saying these things don't matter, but in a comparison strictly about sound quality they kinda don't. Nevertheless these will cloud your judgement.
Which I suppose it is true, but it is hardly the case in real life.
Let's say they are two different business cases...
 

ahofer

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#37
Just for the sake of debate, why is it so relevant since no customer listens to the products unsighted?
It's a reasonable question - why not use sighted evaluation as the standard:

Sighted evaluation is inherently biased by other effects - the appearance of the gear, the time of day, frame of mind, expectations, etc., which I will summarize as "mood". So think of your listening impression as the sum of the pure sound (unsighted) plus mood. While some of the effects of sighted evaluation are stable, such as appearance of the gear, the mood inputs, at least, are not stable. As a result, your impressions of the gear will not be stable. One thing will work for you over time - you will acclimate to the sound of the gear (described inaptly by subjectivists as "break in"), but in other respects, your experience will probably vacillate around the more stable unsighted impression as mood inputs change.

I believe this reversion to sound is why so many audiophiles get hung up in the upgrade frenzy. That cable that perfected their system a few months ago is no longer doing it for them. And that realization will actually have positive feedback into mood and make things worse. Off to find the perfect new tweak. Of course, you can't admit the last decision was bad, so it must now be some other part of your system...a cable, perhaps.

In sum, sighted impressions are unstable and the customer's satisfaction may revert to unsighted levels over time. For these reasons, if you are aiming for *long term* satisfaction, unsighted listening is how a manufacturer should determine preferences.

Another important consideration, in my view, is ethics. Vendors should not make claims about sound without experiments that control for effects that aren't sound. As has been said around here many times, Rolex is not telling people their watches tell better time than a Timex quartz. They might, if time weren't so easily checked.
 
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#39
In sum, sighted impressions are unstable and the customer's satisfaction may revert to unsighted levels over time. For these reasons, if you are aiming for *long term* satisfaction, unsighted listening is how a manufacturer should determine preferences.
It is a good point, I admit. I am still wondering if unsighted sonic quality is stable, since taste and hearing change with time. My second "serious" amplifier, bought 25 years ago, today sounds unbearably mellow to me.
 
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