Prices... am I out of touch?

[Sal1950]

By then the debt was up to three grand, I used to just pay the minimum each month to service it. God knows what that cost me over the years.

Eventually I moved into sales and was able to clear it with my first month's pay. But I wouldn't recommend buying on credit cards to anyone unless you can pay it off right away.

Been there, done that.
Credit Cards, the suckers paradise!
I did the same and for a number of years I carried a high balance, only paying what I could for that month..
Finally I got smart and struggled like hell to pay them off, then after I did, I swore to never purchase anything with them
that I couldn't pay in full by the end of that month. Thankfully I was able to hold myself to that and haven't paid a
penny in interest to them in around 4+ decades now.

The audiophile hobby is interesting because it means a lot of things.

I've never been comfortable with calling the passion to better reproduce recorded music in the home "a hobby".
I take it much too seriously for that. Playing with model trains or building model cars is a hobby.

 

[Sal1950]

However, the bottom started going out and Home Theater, especially in the projector market, and so manufactures of high-quality projectors are now almost solely targeting the luxury rich crowd. I haven’t upgraded in eight years. The same projector quality I bought for around eight grand back then would now cost me around 25 grand.
Nope. No can-do.

The old projector market is being killed by large screen led's.
Unless you have the room for over 120", huge, bright, 100 led's can be had for $2-3k.
I'm sure 150" and more is just around the corner.
When the time comes to replace my 85", I'm trying to figure out how I can squeeze a 100 on that wall.

 

[BrooklynNick]

It's great living here actually, however I never knew we were a socialist communist republic

All communists are socialists, by definition. Socialists who advocate for a single-party state are communists. "Socialist Communist" is meaningless word salad.

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

One thing I've noticed with electronic devices over the last 60 years is that they've gotten cheaper. I can remember what $300 worth of hi fi equipment was like in 1963. Fortunately you could get away with one speaker if you were waiting for stereo to mature a bit. I have an Aiyima A07 amp on my desk in front of me that's better than a $200-$300 amp from 1963. If you allow for inflation and convert the $70 I paid to 1963 dollars rather than converting $200 to 2024 dollars...

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

All communists are socialists, by definition. Socialists who advocate for a single-party state are communists. "Socialist Communist" is meaningless word salad.

IIRC, it was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, although in real world terms it was pretty much like Russia under the Tsars. They had cheesy stereo equipment too.

 

[Duke]

... I'd even dare to say it seems deranged, in a "who is this even for? How much of a spendthrift do you have to be for this to be budget?"

Ime the price of dwelling on one's grievances is one's happiness. Ime it doesn't matter whether the grievance is large or small, justified or unjustified... and our own grievances are always "justified", aren't they? The price is the same either way.

How might you feel if you decided this grievance offers nothing of value, so you laid it aside and walked away from it? I think you'd find it liberating.

Ime listening to music is a wonderful replacement for listening to our negative inner voice that replays our grievances. And ime this is one of the things that gives exceptional value to our hobby.

And speaking of exceptional value, and this is also just my opinion, used gear is where exceptional value is most likely to be discovered.

 

[antcollinet]

haven't paid a
penny in interest to them in around 4+ decades now.

Me too - they are a mugs game - and store cards are worse.

 

[TurtlePaul]

I keep seeing “credit cards” and “spendthrift” and “budgeting” and I guess I am the out of touch one.

Ray Dunzl shares his sailplane hobby on here. I have friends and colleagues into sail boats, general aviation and horses. High end audio is a downright cheap hobby relative.

I get that a person with median U.S. income and wealth cannot really shop high end speakers. But if you look at stats on high net income households and high net worth households, there are millions who can afford it within their monthly budget and/or can pay it out of their account without credit. Internationally, this grows to tens of millions of high net worth households.

I always assumed that 90%+ of people with five-figure stereos weren’t eating ramen because of it or paying off the system on their Sapphire Reserve card.

My main system is two days salary (purchased used) and would be four days income if purchased new. I am considering getting some Genelecs or similar for the office with another one - two days income.

 

[master_arthur]

IIRC, it was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, although in real world terms it was pretty much like Russia under the Tsars. They had cheesy stereo equipment too.

Correct. If I say Socialist Republic it may not be clear to people that it's a Communist state because there are different types of Socialism. Although historically this term was used by the USSR and the individual republics. It is redundant to say it this way, but I don't agree that it makes it a word salad.

The USSR was a bit more multinational than Tsarist Russia. At least that was the idea at the begining. Forced Rusification was stopped when the USSR was founded, but it was restarted again in the 1930s by Stalin, who was Georgian, which is ironic in a way.

 

[BrooklynNick]

but I don't agree that it makes it a word salad.

I stand by "word salad," but I admit it was a bit strong. As you said, it is redundant. In the US we have a lot of people tossing around these terms who seem to have little understanding of their meaning. Yesterday I read that Kamala Harris is a Communist. (I'm not making a political argument pro or con on Harris. My objection is based on the meaning of the words.)

The Soviets were Communists. All Communists are Socialists so there is no conflict in their country having been called a Socialist Republic. They had a single-party state (Communist Party) and had a revolution to overthrow of the previous system, which fits the standard definition.

 

[Mart68]

I keep seeing “credit cards” and “spendthrift” and “budgeting” and I guess I am the out of touch one.

Ray Dunzl shares his sailplane hobby on here. I have friends and colleagues into sail boats, general aviation and horses. High end audio is a downright cheap hobby relative.

I get that a person with median U.S. income and wealth cannot really shop high end speakers. But if you look at stats on high net income households and high net worth households, there are millions who can afford it within their monthly budget and/or can pay it out of their account without credit. Internationally, this grows to tens of millions of high net worth households.

I always assumed that 90%+ of people with five-figure stereos weren’t eating ramen because of it or paying off the system on their Sapphire Reserve card.

Probably most can easily afford it, but then I've seen plenty of people with 5 figure systems have to sell some or all of it, either to part finance upgrades or because they had an unexpected expense - such as their car died.

So at least some of them are operating at the limit of what they can afford even if not actually going into debt.

And if you're a believer in the 'accessories' market it can get ruinously expensive even when the core system components are fairly inexpensive. Fancy power cords and former 'flavour of the month' cables take a massive depreciation on resale. If you can sell them at all.

 

[Sokel]

Considering price,the new trend seems to be Low price - Frequent buys.
We see people owning 5 DACs,multiple small amps,separate HP amps - DACs waiting for the new shiny,cheap thing to hit the market to grab.

Usually with no audible benefit whatsoever.
That's a major turn and if one add the combined cost I'm afraid can get into (low-end) hiend audio price tag.

Yes,it seems low at the time of purchase but adding things up...

 

[Willem]

Considering price,the new trend seems to be Low price - Frequent buys

I do indeed see quite a bit of it, due in part to audiophilia nervosa. On the other hand, many ordinary people who do not post on audio forums do not do this. My strategy as someone with a serious education in economics has always been to buy sensible high quality gear and keep it for decades (progress is not that fast). Selling gear to buy the next stuff is financial madness. Do your homework, and then live by your decisions. That way, the total cost of ownership over many years of even quite expensive gear can be quite modest. After half a century I am still mostly on my second main system.

 

[Sokel]

I do indeed see quite a bit of it, due in part to audiophilia nervosa. On the other hand, many ordinary people who do not post on audio forums do not do this. My strategy as someone with a serious education in economics has always been to buy sensible high quality gear and keep it for decades (progress is not that fast). Selling gear to buy the next stuff is financial madness. Do your homework, and then live by your decisions. That way, the total cost of ownership over many years of even quite expensive gear can be quite modest. After half a century I am still mostly on my second main system.

I have no serious education in economics but I have a good consultant.
His (translated) motto is: "cheap meat ends up eaten by the dogs"

So...

 

[Willem]

The other good news is, of course, that even affordable gear is now much better and will still give many years of listening pleasure: Yamaha AS201 and Wharfedale Diamond 220 for the bargain basement of good qualty, or with the Wiim Amp for built in streamer and equalization?

 

[gwing]

Just another perspective for our original poster:

When I bought my first 'hi fi' system as a student in the seventies it cost me six weeks worth of wages - that was for pretty much the cheapest possible system by the way, in comparison my father's generation in the pre-stereo days of the earliest valve hifi might have spent multiple years or at least months average income on a system i.e. it was completely unaffordable for most.

Today I can buy a complete stereo system that is much better than that first student system for just 25 *hours* wages at the UK minimum wage. Hifi has never been so cheap although, like everything, you can waste spend as much as you like on it, seemingly without limit.

 

[JeffS7444]

Addressing the matter of headphone prices specifically, Sean Olive made some very interesting observations regarding the price of headphones and their predicted sound quality.
https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2017/02/twirt-337-predicting-headphone-sound_17.html
Which is not to suggest that there aren't some costly and excellent products out there, but in many cases, your extra money may be buying you something other than upgraded sound quality.

 

[JeffS7444]

Lest we forget, price, and a person's ability to acquire costly and scarce goods are widely recognized status markers. But the specific message that it sends may be interpreted in a variety of different ways, depending on the recipient!

My own peak years of craving high-end/luxury goods occurred when I was in my 20s and 30s. But today, I'm more concerned about stuff which impresses me, rather than some audiophile community. Behold, my newest IEMs, which deliver some of the best headphone sonics that I've experienced to date:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-endurance-run-2.49492/

 

[MattHooper]

The old projector market is being killed by large screen led's.
Unless you have the room for over 120", huge, bright, 100 led's can be had for $2-3k.
I'm sure 150" and more is just around the corner.
When the time comes to replace my 85", I'm trying to figure out how I can squeeze a 100 on that wall.

One of the problems for really large flat panel screens even today they can weigh a substantial amount in terms of finding a way to mount them, but even worse once you get too big it would be hard for many people to actually navigate one into the home.

I started out as a flat panel fanatic, I was the first person I knew to buy a plasma in 2001.

But then I got the Home Theatre projector bug in 2008 and that’s when I did a remodel of my room to do a projection based Home Theatre.

My projection screen is over 10 feet wide and taller than the usual screen. And another reason it would be hard to replace is that I have a bit of an unusual system that I term VIS - Variable Image Size system. Basically it’s a projection screen that is almost the size of the whole wall, surrounded by four-way automated screen masking system which can change the screen to any shape or size at aspect ratio. This is combined with my projectors lens memory zoom feature, so with the press of a button I can change the aspect ratio or size of the image to suit whatever movie I’m watching, never seeing any black bars either.

This type of functionality and versatility that I would find hard to give up for a flatscreen.

There’s also the issue that since my two channel speakers are out front of the screen, replacing a projection screen with a really large flat panel would likely introduce a large hard reflective surface between the speakers which could make for some worse acoustics.

 

[Palladium]

Lest we forget, price, and a person's ability to acquire costly and scarce goods are widely recognized status markers. But the specific message that it sends may be interpreted in a variety of different ways, depending on the recipient!

My own peak years of craving high-end/luxury goods occurred when I was in my 20s and 30s. But today, I'm more concerned about stuff which impresses me, rather than some audiophile community. Behold, my newest IEMs, which deliver some of the best headphone sonics that I've experienced to date:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-endurance-run-2.49492/

Yup, infinitely varying room acoustics for speakers or outer-ear interactions for headphones will always matter much more than the equipment cost. Of course no manufacturer is going to emphasize this for obvious $ reasons.

I also heard rumors the headphone industry was especially furious at the Harman curve research being publicized.