Presonus Sceptre S8 (optimized) & compared to Neumann KH120

[ernestcarl]

You can kinda EQ the Sceptre to behave similar to the Neumann, tonally, but you can't EQ the Neumann to behave like a coaxial point source.

Yep. It's interesting how they both sound very neutral to me (nothing sticks out sorely or exaggerated tonally), and yet still both sound so radically different. At the very least, one has got to look at the spinorama, as well as individual pattern of the directivity curves.

 

[dasdoing]

Yep. It's interesting how they both sound very neutral to me (nothing sticks out sorely or exaggerated tonally), and yet still both sound so radically different. At the very least, one has got to look at the spinorama, as well as individual pattern of the directivity curves.

they do look funny

but, I take them. I can pay the shipping ;-)

 

[ernestcarl]

This speaker is interesting in that it's sort of relatively easy to EQ, but it also may need a lot PEQ bands if you're the type of person that really wants to make the response as smooth as possible. So I guess that's another caveat there for you.

If anyone's interested in looking at the rough directivity curves within REW it can be downloaded here (8mb mdat): DIRECTIVITY CURVES SCEPTRE S8 EQ EXERCISE

There are three unequalized measurements at my main listening position (2 meters and ~15+ degrees off-axis) if anyone feels up to the challenge of improving my latest "extreme yet minimal" speaker EQ correction (req file included). I've also already pre-applied some windowing & smoothing -- feel free to disable or change these settings as you please.

Equaliser: Generic
Headroom reqd: 1.2 dB at 2.14 kHz

Filter  1: ON  PK       Fc   810.0 Hz  Gain   1.20 dB  Q  5.000
Filter  2: ON  PK       Fc    1171 Hz  Gain -13.90 dB  Q  2.800
Filter  3: ON  PK       Fc    1171 Hz  Gain  14.80 dB  Q  3.300
Filter  4: ON  PK       Fc    1550 Hz  Gain   0.50 dB  Q  5.000
Filter  5: ON  PK       Fc    2143 Hz  Gain  13.00 dB  Q  1.300
Filter  6: ON  PK       Fc    2372 Hz  Gain -14.00 dB  Q  1.000
Filter  7: ON  PK       Fc    2400 Hz  Gain   1.30 dB  Q  3.000
Filter  8: ON  PK       Fc    3436 Hz  Gain   2.60 dB  Q  7.000
Filter  9: ON  PK       Fc    4700 Hz  Gain  -0.50 dB  Q  6.000
Filter 10: ON  PK       Fc    4739 Hz  Gain  11.70 dB  Q  1.000
Filter 11: ON  PK       Fc    4969 Hz  Gain -12.10 dB  Q  1.200
Filter 12: ON  PK       Fc    5017 Hz  Gain   5.30 dB  Q  4.800
Filter 13: ON  PK       Fc    6500 Hz  Gain   1.00 dB  Q  8.000
Filter 14: ON  PK       Fc    6750 Hz  Gain  -1.00 dB  Q  1.000
Filter 15: ON  PK       Fc    7000 Hz  Gain  -1.20 dB  Q  3.500
Filter 16: ON  PK       Fc    7250 Hz  Gain  -0.80 dB  Q  1.000
Filter 17: ON  PK       Fc    7300 Hz  Gain  -0.40 dB  Q  7.000
Filter 18: ON  PK       Fc    8237 Hz  Gain   2.50 dB  Q  7.000
Filter 19: ON  PK       Fc    8547 Hz  Gain  -1.50 dB  Q  1.000
Filter 20: ON  PK       Fc   10330 Hz  Gain  -1.50 dB  Q  2.900

The general pattern is more or less the same for all my EQ: boost 2 kHz a little bit; reduce 3 kHz and 6-11 kHz.

*SIMPLE EQ

Equaliser: Generic
Headroom reqd: 1.1 dB at 1.7 kHz

Filter  1: ON  PK       Fc    1581 Hz  Gain  -9.00 dB  Q  1.000
Filter  2: ON  PK       Fc    1700 Hz  Gain  10.00 dB  Q  1.000
Filter  3: ON  PK       Fc    2827 Hz  Gain  -2.50 dB  Q  4.600
Filter  4: ON  PK       Fc    4970 Hz  Gain   0.70 dB  Q  5.700
Filter  5: ON  PK       Fc    6640 Hz  Gain  -3.50 dB  Q  3.200
Filter  6: ON  PK       Fc    7300 Hz  Gain  -1.40 dB  Q 10.000
Filter  7: ON  PK       Fc   10157 Hz  Gain  -3.20 dB  Q  1.900

 

[Wavez]

I have a pair of Sceptre S8s and I can confirm that subjectively, they sound amazing for the money. I've been using them in my studio for years and feel no need to upgrade. Interested to try some eq on them now.

 

[ernestcarl]

I have a pair of Sceptre S8s and I can confirm that subjectively, they sound amazing for the money. I've been using them in my studio for years and feel no need to upgrade. Interested to try some eq on them now.

Yep, they do sound great and one of only few currently available studio monitors with linear phase. And you can definitely tailor these to be much more even in the FR (better to use the quasi-anechoic curves), though, be aware of the angles as my own posted PEQs has been made for ~15-20 degrees crossed off-axis listening. The room boundaries (walls, ceiling, floor, desk, etc.) will still affect the final response curve at the LP -- small, very minor adjustments can be made thereafter as well if one truly desires -- but be careful not to over-correct at one listening position as that will, of course, alter the response at all all angles and listening places -- a balance has to be struck. I suggest trying out the MMM or moving microphone method.

 

[dasdoing]

@ernestcarl you think the S6 will have enough power to be combined with a subwoofer? I know you don't have those, but do you ever get the S8s to the limit?

 

[ernestcarl]

@ernestcarl you think the S6 will have enough power to be combined with a subwoofer? I know you don't have those, but do you ever get the S8s to the limit?

Not before causing infrasonic bass compression to my sealed Rythmik F12 sub. So the sealed sub is what limits my system...

This is just a guess, but I think the S6 might have similar limits as the KH120 -- if used with a sub.

The S6's official max peak output is 109 dB (?); but S8 can reach 116dB max -- theoretically! -- but this is around the higher bass frequency band. If I play a tone burst at around 140Hz the clipping red light warning flashes after maybe 5 or 6dB above (can't remember exactly but I'll test it later) the KH120's own limiter LED indicator -- making these monitors useable at (loud) listening distances over two meters. Which makes me think the KH120 and S6 are more well suited in the nearfield.

Interestingly, the KH120's tweeter can actually play at higher SPLs before actively limiting itself when using swept tones. Perhaps it's somewhat expected since the magnet on that HF driver is big, and it's the same HF driver they use in their larger models.

Another thing: despite the large box size of the S8, the low cut-off point isn't really all that much deeper than the KH120 -- but it can definitely play a lot louder before limiting itself. Less than two meters, I think the S6 would be perfectly fine.

 

[MFE222]

@ernestcarl I can see some serious lab experiments here, thanks for your effort, big respect!!

Forgive me but in behalf of all newbies and ignorants like me I'd like to ask a few questions.

I have a pair of Sceptre S8's since 2016 and love them. To which software do you load your Room EQ calibration files? I know people use Equalizer Apo on Windows, but I'm using Mac and I couldn't find a free app like that to run on master output of the operating system and route my audio interface output to it.

Because the enviroment, shape of the room, and objects around left and right speaker may be different, even we place them symetrically they can respond different, that's why Genelec calibration system (SAM) can make seperate and different corrections to each speaker. So your test made me wonder if it's possible to load different calibration files for left and right to Equalizer Apo, or to the software you recommend?

Lastly, because the Sceptre's are co-axial, so did you try to reverse the speaker (upside down) to see is there any difference in the response?

 

[allan]

@MFE222, unrelated but I've been eyeing the S8's lately; how are they holding up? It seems too good to be true for how they're priced in comparison to the reviews I've seen.

 

[MFE222]

@MFE222, unrelated but I've been eyeing the S8's lately; how are they holding up? It seems too good to be true for how they're priced in comparison to the reviews I've seen.

Hi allan, sorry I couldn't stop by for a while, just saw your comment..Well, I always consider the products related to their prices, hence I also have to make my comments according to this. Sceptre's are really good, really worth their price, and to me I really think they're so underrated, I don't understand why they're not famous as KRK VTX series or Adams etc..

Here's the short story, I was lucky to listen them before the buy. When compared with the other classic designed speakers, at first, high speaker translation was not OK for me. I kinda had a natural sort of roll off or something. But they were soo tight! And, the coaxial design is something when you only listen and experience it. You hear and understand the phase issue thing between two seperate speakers vs. coaxial immediately if you haven't yet. So it was impressed me a lot but I was not quite shure about the high frequency driver. Then a friend of mine who's really an experienced mastering engineer came in, it was the first time he was hearing Sceptre's..He listened the speakers and his comment was very positive, so this made me lean more towards on to them. I then tested the S6 and S8 versions, I was wondering which one suit better to me, and this last test made me choose Sceptre's instead of other brands speakers couse except the bass frequency limit, the 6" and the 8" version were %95 or maybe totally same! I was shocked couse I know A7x and A8x doesn't sound same, yet Genelec 8030 doesn't sound like 8040, or 8040 is not like 8050 etc. etc. The bigger ones always have some sort of headroom you hear immediately and the frequency response is not always the same. All the speakers at different sizes I've experienced till that day were not sounding the same! But these dudes were really equal except the bass frequency response. So I understood how good was the design of these speakers! And because of my control room size at that time, I've choosen the S8's.

I preferred Sceptres over to Focal Solo Be, Dynaudio, KRK Vxt, Adam,R65 and 8040...Tight low end, good depth, and wide stereo image not exxegerated like focals. Giving decisions are easy while mixing & mastering although I'd like to have an extra pair of hifi speakers to switch between them. The hiss noise on these are really high, it may annoy you at first but overall they're worth every single penny you pay. If you're switching from a different speaker to them, It may take some time to get used to, but after that you'll gonna be happy I believe. Years later, I also had chance to experience Equator Q8 and Fluid F8..Fluid is not in the same ball park, hence Equator is not similar with S8. Sceptre's are more punch and tight overall, and I didn't like the frequency response of Equators to be honest. I only wonder about the Quested's..I wish I could experience them so It was easy to compare them with my speakers.

But my future plans are to get a pair of 8341, If I can afford of course, I heard worked with them and liked them, they're on another level (( :

 

[allan]

Hi allan, sorry I couldn't stop by for a while, just saw your comment..Well, I always consider the products related to their prices, hence I also have to make my comments according to this. Sceptre's are really good, really worth their price, and to me I really think they're so underrated, I don't understand why they're not famous as KRK VTX series or Adams etc..

But my future plans are to get a pair of 8341, If I can afford of course, I heard worked with them and liked them, they're on another level (( :

hey MFE, no worries for the late response. I appreciate your thorough write up, it's given me a lot to think about. A rep I'm in contact with said PreSonus's longevity is questionable, which I can understand as I haven't had the best experience with their interface (but that's comparing apples and oranges). Right now I'm eyeing the KH310s as I can get them slightly below MSRP, but it's tough to know without having them heard in my own room

 

[ABRAX]

I have Presonus Sceptre S8, use it for production and mixing down techno. I had Adam A7x in the middle, found them horrible and switched back to Sceptre S8s. Added a Presonus T10 subwoofer. Question is: is Neumann KH 150 an upgrade? Need as flat and linear as possible.

 

[tifune]

I have Presonus Sceptre S8, use it for production and mixing down techno. I had Adam A7x in the middle, found them horrible and switched back to Sceptre S8s. Added a Presonus T10 subwoofer. Question is: is Neumann KH 150 an upgrade? Need as flat and linear as possible.

As far as non-coax speakers go, it's pretty hard to beat Neumann vis a vis price : performance. Sadly their software track record is so bad I gave up and moved to Genelec. but honestly if you're talking about anything 7.1 or below, I wouldn't let that be a deterrent. There's so many options unless you need more than 8 channels or 2 subs.

I don't think KH150 has been independently verified yet, but with what we do have to work with there's little, if any, reason to doubt Neumann continuing their excellent track record. Personally, I'm a cheapskate, so I'd be looking at used/b-stock 120's plus subs and miniDSP vs a pair of 150's but there are valid reasons for both

 

[ABRAX]

Thank you @tifune. Just looking for a 2.1 or 2.0 setup. Can also bump up the budget to buy KH 310s w/ a sub. Just wonder if it would be a real upgrade from the sceptre S8s. Also how does the Hedd Type 30 MK2 compare to the KH 310, since the price is similar.

 

[ernestcarl]

I have Presonus Sceptre S8, use it for production and mixing down techno. I had Adam A7x in the middle, found them horrible and switched back to Sceptre S8s. Added a Presonus T10 subwoofer. Question is: is Neumann KH 150 an upgrade? Need as flat and linear as possible.

To me, the KH150 does appear to be significantly, technically better than the S8. As to whether it is "worth" the upgrade, nobody can answer that question but yourself. It's really the mid-range vocals and their "smoothness" (with or without any extra EQ) that sets apart Neumann monitors from the Sceptre -- the latter is just more uneven mainly because of the inherent interruption in the small horn-loaded waveguide design.

But if I were comparing longer listening distance and higher SPL between the KH120 and Sceptre S8, then the obvious answer would be the S8 for me. The KH120's bass craps out much too soon -- for the home theater use case I had in mind when I originally purchased the monitors.

 

[tifune]

Thank you @tifune. Just looking for a 2.1 or 2.0 setup. Can also bump up the budget to buy KH 310s w/ a sub. Just wonder if it would be a real upgrade from the sceptre S8s. Also how does the Hedd Type 30 MK2 compare to the KH 310, since the price is similar.

I presume you've seen this?

Sound & Recording review and measurements of the HEDD Type 30 MK2

Source: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/hedd-type-30-mk2-3-wege-midfield-monitor-im-test/ Electronic translation of the text: 01 Individual frequency responses of the three paths. LF ported (red) and closed (purple), MF (green) and HF (blue). The AMT tweeter is driven by a 15...

www.audiosciencereview.com

FWIW I just sold my 310's because, by my count, Neumann refreshes every 8-9 years. combined with some good evidence of KH120 II's released in near future, it's reasonable to think a KH320(?) is on the horizon so I wanted to let go before value plummeted. None of this makes them bad speakers!! It's just I know myself, upgradeitis and all that, plus the MA1 software is so far behind competition... YMMV depending on your circumstances

 

[ABRAX]

I presume you've seen this?

Sound & Recording review and measurements of the HEDD Type 30 MK2

Source: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/hedd-type-30-mk2-3-wege-midfield-monitor-im-test/ Electronic translation of the text: 01 Individual frequency responses of the three paths. LF ported (red) and closed (purple), MF (green) and HF (blue). The AMT tweeter is driven by a 15...

www.audiosciencereview.com

FWIW I just sold my 310's because, by my count, Neumann refreshes every 8-9 years. combined with some good evidence of KH120 II's released in near future, it's reasonable to think a KH320(?) is on the horizon so I wanted to let go before value plummeted. None of this makes them bad speakers!! It's just I know myself, upgradeitis and all that, plus the MA1 software is so far behind competition... YMMV depending on your circumstances

Then what do you recommend as a more accurate update from Presonus S8 + Presonus T10 subwoofer? I also have ADAM A7x but don't use it.

- Neumann KH 310
- Genelec 8341/8351
- Hedd Audio Type 30 MK2
- Any ME Geithain recommendations like RL 904 (since they are coaxial as well)

Please note that I produce and have to mixdown techno, so either would have o add a sub later if the monitors don't have so much low end information.

Of course I would have gone for a Genelec 8361/Neumann KH420 if money was not an issue but at that price point, ATC SCM 45s make more sense.

 

[ernestcarl]

Any ME Geithain recommendations like RL 904 (since they are coaxial as well)

Geithains are pretty expensive speakers, too — and they likely sound very different… just looking at the on- and off-axis response. I’m not sure if they really are the best direct upgrade path coming from the Sceptres.

You probably should think about the things in your current setup that is lacking or could be better… from experience. Is it the bass extension and maximum SPL? I’m guessing it’s probably not a mid-range vocals specific issue since your genre is EDM.

Perhaps, upgrading your sub(s) setup to something better than the T10 would be enough. Maybe start with that first…

 

[ABRAX]

Geithains are pretty expensive speakers, too — and they likely sound very different… just looking at the on- and off-axis response. I’m not sure if they really are the best direct upgrade path coming from the Sceptres.

You probably should think about the things in your current setup that is lacking or could be better… from experience. Is it the bass extension and maximum SPL? I’m guessing it’s probably not a mid-range vocals specific issue since your genre is EDM.

Perhaps, upgrading your sub(s) setup to something better than the T10 would be enough. Maybe start with that first…

Is there something I could do to flatten the factory response of S8?

I think low end is not an issue anymore after I got the sub. But just would like to switch to more accurate and flater monitors for mixing tracks and also hearing the details of my mastering engineer does to my tracks.

 

[ernestcarl]

Is there something I could do to flatten the factory response of S8?

I think low end is not an issue anymore after I got the sub. But just would like to switch to more accurate and flater monitors for mixing tracks and also hearing the details of my mastering engineer does to my tracks.

Indeed, there is... with individualized "fine" speaker EQ applied in each channel. My own EQ methodology and settings have changed a bit from the ones previously posted on this thread.

I use a moving microphone measurement (preferably using a 90 degrees calibrated measurement microphone -- so pointing up) at the MLP which provides a quick method for getting spatially averaged data. But also verify this with a single (frequency dependent windowed) or multi-point measurement technique as well around the MLP area or zone. The complete IR sweep (not MMM) will allow you to see the more detailed before and after equalization 'decay' characteristic profile.

The speaker EQ (above the bass frequencies) will differ a bit depending on the size of the area and distance measured.

For example:

Moving microphone measurement at 1.4 meters distance ('fine' or detailed Full-range EQ example):



The amount of shelving applied to the HF -- if any -- depends on the room (reflection characteristic) and your own personal preference.