Pops and Clicks in music with USB out on the WIIM Ultra

[Tilock]

I've been using a laptop to stream Tidal/Qobuz and a local lossless collection to my Yamaha CD-S2100 SACD player which has USB/COAX/OPT inputs and a 24bit/192kHz ESS DAC. Worked great except neither Tidal or Qobuz allow external control from a remote device so I was using Chrome remote desktop. Works alright but it's slow and has some bugs.

Picked up a WIIM Ultra during the black Friday sale to simplify things with the intention of using USB out to the Yamaha as before. Set it up which was nice and easy. Integrated it with my phone and tablet and was very happy with the interface. The DAC in the Yamaha picked up whatever sampling rate was playing and displays it on the display and there were no issues switching rates from song to song.

Listened to it last night using Qobuz and I thought I was occasionally hearing the occasional pop/click but the music was very busy and I wasn't 100% sure. There was the occasional obvious clicks during the quiet lead out which seemed to happen before switching tracks but I convinced myself it was the known issue of sampling rate switches when changing rates even though I had fade in/fade out enabled.

Then I came to a song (Eva Cassidy - Autumn Leave on the Nightbird album) that I've listened to a lot and has a lot of quiet passages. I heard pops that sounded just like you'd expect on a dirty record album. They are intermittent and don't always happen at the same time. It is not a drop out like you'd expect from jitter/sync issues but an additional sound over the rest of the music. There doesn't seem to be any general reduction in quality overall.

Here is a link to a google drive folder with samples recorded at the speaker using a UMIK-1 mic. One using the USB and one using the Optical connection. If you listen to the silence just before she sings "The falling leaves..." you'll hear the "pop" on the USB version but not the optical. Note the pops aren't always in the same place and seem to happen frequently but randomly.

WIIM - Google Drive

drive.google.com

There is no EQ/ROOM correction enabled. The latest firmware is installed.

Testing done so far:

1. Played the hard copy CD album on the same CD player. Perfect.
2. Played the same song through Tidal using USB out on WIIM. Still has pops.
3. Reconnected the laptop using the same USB cord/input and ASIO drivers in the Qobuz app. Perfect. So it's not an issue with the DAC in the player.
4. Used the Optical out on the WIIM to optical in on the CD player. Perfect.
5. Changed the DPLL settings for the CD player DAC. No effect.
6. Changed the Vrms output in the WIIM. No effect.
7. Played the song on a completely different device through both tidal/Qobuz apps. Perfect.
8. Reset the WIIM(through interface and unplugged) and checked the USB connections. No effect.
9. Changed USB cable. No effect.

I'm wondering if anyone else has run into this problem and if so if they found a fix? Given that the optical out is working fine it seems like the issue is isolated to the USB output on the WIIM. The song is normal CD quality 16 bit /44.1kHz so the sample rate was the same between the two outputs.

I don't even know what could cause this type of corruption of the signal with digital data.

I've posted in the WIIM forum but have not received any fixes. I've also submitted a ticket through the wiim home app but I haven't heard back from support yet.

Thanks for your time!

 

[wwenze]

Only thing I can think of is common-mode noise. Which is avoided completely by using optical.

 

[Brian Hall]

Use stereo out and RCA cables. There is no benefit to bypassing the DAC in the Wiim Ultra.

 

[Tilock]

Only thing I can think of is common-mode noise. Which is avoided completely by using optical.

That seems like a possibility but I was under the impression that normally resulted in a generally higher noise floor with a constant hum/hiss. This issue seems to only result in random split second artifacts over top of the normal signal. You'd also think that it would have been more likely to run into it when I was using the computer as a source if my setup was in some way abnormally susceptible to the problem.

Given that I can't find a single other instance of someone running into the same issue on the WiiM Ultra it appears to be a very uncommon issue. Perhaps it's physically defective. I'm still waiting to hear back from WiiM support but the next step will be sending it back to amazon for another unit. I could pull it apart and check the USB grounding etc but doesn't seem worth it!

Thanks for your input!

 

[Tilock]

I'm still waiting on WiiM's solution as the matter has been forwarded to their engineering team. Here's a spectrum for each audio file. The "pop" is a brief full range artifact.

 

[phofman]

The spectrogram suggests it is a buffer issue, either missing or corrupted sample/s. Very similar to sox spectrograms I see if the same issue happens in my chains - examples e.g. https://forum.radxa.com/t/rock-pi-s-i2s0-anyone-getting-clean-96-192khz/20220/3 .

On normal linux I would check the USB audio parameters/compatibility of your Yamaha DAC, I do not know how to do this troubleshooting on locked-down embedded linux in Wiim. It may be your Yamaha USB DAC is not properly supported by Wiim linux kernel, e.g. async feedback not being properly honored, etc...

 

[Tilock]

The spectrogram suggests it is a buffer issue, either missing or corrupted sample/s. Very similar to sox spectrograms I see if the same issue happens in my chains - examples e.g. https://forum.radxa.com/t/rock-pi-s-i2s0-anyone-getting-clean-96-192khz/20220/3 .

On normal linux I would check the USB audio parameters/compatibility of your Yamaha DAC, I do not know how to do this troubleshooting on locked-down embedded linux in Wiim. It may be your Yamaha USB DAC is not properly supported by Wiim linux kernel, e.g. async feedback not being properly honored, etc...

Thanks for the suggestion. I agree that some incompatibility between the WiiM and the DAC in the Yamaha seems to be the most likely issue. The DAC chip used is the ESS ES9016 32 bit but the implementation within the player is not the standard circuit layout given by ESS. It seems corruption is more likely since the spectrogram matches the clean version even in the section with the artifact.

I know that it has no issues with the async ASIO USB output from a PC but there's clearly something going wrong when connected to the WiiM.

 

[phofman]

The DAC chip is not used for USB receiver. I could not find any details of the USB configuration for this device, basically no discussions online. The ASIO driver is vendor-supplied, it would be sad if it had issues. I do not know what USB receiver chip that device uses.

A reasonably recent linux running e.g. from a USB flashdrive would tell many details about the USB capabilities of that device.

 

[Tilock]

The DAC chip is not used for USB receiver. I could not find any details of the USB configuration for this device, basically no discussions online. The ASIO driver is vendor-supplied, it would be sad if it had issues. I do not know what USB receiver chip that device uses.

A reasonably recent linux running e.g. from a USB flashdrive would tell many details about the USB capabilities of that device.

Yes, of course. I only wanted to say that it was unlikely to be a compatibility issue with the DAC itself and mentioned the ASIO driver working properly to eliminate the possibility of the receiver/DAC being defective.

It's been a while since I've played around with linux and I would need to spend a fair amount of time and effort in setting up the testing platform. I'm not sure it's worth the effort in this case.

I'll let you know if WiiM comes back with a firm solution/cause.

Thanks.

 

[terryforsythe]

I've been using a laptop to stream Tidal/Qobuz and a local lossless collection to my Yamaha CD-S2100 SACD player which has USB/COAX/OPT inputs and a 24bit/192kHz ESS DAC. Worked great except neither Tidal or Qobuz allow external control from a remote device so I was using Chrome remote desktop. Works alright but it's slow and has some bugs.

Picked up a WIIM Ultra during the black Friday sale to simplify things with the intention of using USB out to the Yamaha as before. Set it up which was nice and easy. Integrated it with my phone and tablet and was very happy with the interface. The DAC in the Yamaha picked up whatever sampling rate was playing and displays it on the display and there were no issues switching rates from song to song.

Listened to it last night using Qobuz and I thought I was occasionally hearing the occasional pop/click but the music was very busy and I wasn't 100% sure. There was the occasional obvious clicks during the quiet lead out which seemed to happen before switching tracks but I convinced myself it was the known issue of sampling rate switches when changing rates even though I had fade in/fade out enabled.

Then I came to a song (Eva Cassidy - Autumn Leave on the Nightbird album) that I've listened to a lot and has a lot of quiet passages. I heard pops that sounded just like you'd expect on a dirty record album. They are intermittent and don't always happen at the same time. It is not a drop out like you'd expect from jitter/sync issues but an additional sound over the rest of the music. There doesn't seem to be any general reduction in quality overall.

Here is a link to a google drive folder with samples recorded at the speaker using a UMIK-1 mic. One using the USB and one using the Optical connection. If you listen to the silence just before she sings "The falling leaves..." you'll hear the "pop" on the USB version but not the optical. Note the pops aren't always in the same place and seem to happen frequently but randomly.

WIIM - Google Drive

drive.google.com

There is no EQ/ROOM correction enabled. The latest firmware is installed.

Testing done so far:

1. Played the hard copy CD album on the same CD player. Perfect.
2. Played the same song through Tidal using USB out on WIIM. Still has pops.
3. Reconnected the laptop using the same USB cord/input and ASIO drivers in the Qobuz app. Perfect. So it's not an issue with the DAC in the player.
4. Used the Optical out on the WIIM to optical in on the CD player. Perfect.
5. Changed the DPLL settings for the CD player DAC. No effect.
6. Changed the Vrms output in the WIIM. No effect.
7. Played the song on a completely different device through both tidal/Qobuz apps. Perfect.
8. Reset the WIIM(through interface and unplugged) and checked the USB connections. No effect.
9. Changed USB cable. No effect.

I'm wondering if anyone else has run into this problem and if so if they found a fix? Given that the optical out is working fine it seems like the issue is isolated to the USB output on the WIIM. The song is normal CD quality 16 bit /44.1kHz so the sample rate was the same between the two outputs.

I don't even know what could cause this type of corruption of the signal with digital data.

I've posted in the WIIM forum but have not received any fixes. I've also submitted a ticket through the wiim home app but I haven't heard back from support yet.

Thanks for your time!

I have been using my WiiM Ultra since July, using USB out into a Raspberry Pi running CamillaDSP and camilladsp-setrate. It had been working fine with Tidal until yesterday. Yesterday I started getting some clicks. I changed the samplerate in CamillaDSP to 44100 and this fixed it. But, the samplerate is supposed to be automatically changed by camilladsp-setrate, so I'm not sure why that change solved my issue.

I don't know what is the issue. But, considering the timing of when you and I both encountered issues, my issue could be releated to your issue. I was out of town last week and just got back yesterday, so whatever is causing the issue could have popped up any time this last week.

 

[Tilock]

I have been using my WiiM Ultra since July, using USB out into a Raspberry Pi running CamillaDSP and camilladsp-setrate. It had been working fine with Tidal until yesterday. Yesterday I started getting some clicks. I changed the samplerate in CamillaDSP to 44100 and this fixed it. But, the samplerate is supposed to be automatically changed by camilladsp-setrate, so I'm not sure why that change solved my issue.

I don't know what is the issue. But, considering the timing of when you and I both encountered issues, my issue could be releated to your issue. I was out of town last week and just got back yesterday, so whatever is causing the issue could have popped up any time this last week.

Seems unlikely to be a coincidence when there's no other mention of the issue online. Unfortunately I dont think I can lock the sample rate in my DAC as it automatically selects whatever the incoming rate is and the WiiM can't lock the sample rate for USB as far as I've seen. My DAC was displaying the correct sampling rate for whatever the song was streamed in.

Was the problem happening on with songs that were already 44.1kHz or just higher sampling rates? Do your pops happen at different times each time the song is played?

Do you remember if your WiiM updated the firmware when you came back? Given that I only purchase mine last week it updated to the latest firmware during the install. So if yours updated while you were gone and the problem started then maybe it is responsible for the issue. I wonder if there's a way to install an older firmware.

 

[terryforsythe]

Was the problem happening on with songs that were already 44.1kHz or just higher sampling rates?

It appears to be any song where the samplerate set in CamillaDSP does not match the song's streaming samplerate. Camilladsp-setrate is supposed to detect the capture samplerate and automatically adjust for it. That no longer appears to be working correctly. I now have the samplerate set to 44.1k. If a song is streaming at a higher samplerate, CamillaDSP is showing the "State" as stalled and the "Capt. samplerate" is flashing on and off, though with the correct capture samplerate for the song. It seems to me that CamillaDSP and/or camilladsp-setrate now is having an issue properly detecting the capture samplerate. There have been no recent updates to camillaDSP nor camilladsp-setrate, which leaves updates to the WiiM Ultra or updates to Linux as being the suspects. Since you also are having streaming issues, I suspect the cultprit is the most recent WiiM Ultra update.

Do you remember if your WiiM updated the firmware when you came back?

It may have been updated just before I left. The build date is Nov. 19, 2024, firmware version 5.2.636045. But, I may not have spent much time listening to it before I left. I think that build is the issue.

Please post here when you hear back from support.

 

[terryforsythe]

Seems unlikely to be a coincidence when there's no other mention of the issue online. Unfortunately I dont think I can lock the sample rate in my DAC as it automatically selects whatever the incoming rate is and the WiiM can't lock the sample rate for USB as far as I've seen. My DAC was displaying the correct sampling rate for whatever the song was streamed in.

Was the problem happening on with songs that were already 44.1kHz or just higher sampling rates? Do your pops happen at different times each time the song is played?

Do you remember if your WiiM updated the firmware when you came back? Given that I only purchase mine last week it updated to the latest firmware during the install. So if yours updated while you were gone and the problem started then maybe it is responsible for the issue. I wonder if there's a way to install an older firmware.

I have confirmed the problem is with the WiiM Ultra, most likely due to the last update.

I am now streaming directly to my Raspberry Pi, not using the WiiM, and everything is working properly.

(Side note: the issue I run into when streaming directly is that the music stops when my tablet goes to sleep, which is why I have the WiiM - it continues playing until I reach the end of my playlist, album, etc.)

 

[Tilock]

I have confirmed the problem is with the WiiM Ultra, most likely due to the last update.

I am now streaming directly to my Raspberry Pi, not using the WiiM, and everything is working properly.

(Side note: the issue I run into when streaming directly is that the music stops when my tablet goes to sleep, which is why I have the WiiM - it continues playing until I reach the end of my playlist, album, etc.)

Might be worth submitting a ticket through the WiiM home app just to increase their exposure to this issue. I'll update with any information that I receive from WiiM.

No judgement here! I only own it for ease of use reasons myself.

 

[terryforsythe]

Might be worth submitting a ticket through the WiiM home app just to increase their exposure to this issue. I'll update with any information that I receive from WiiM.

No judgement here! I only own it for ease of use reasons myself.

I just sent in a support ticket.

 

[Tilock]

Well, it appears as though they have decided to just send me a new unit without offering any indication of why they believe my issues are happening. My ticket had previously been forwarded to the engineering department for review. I replied telling them that I was aware of another user having similar issues since the latest firmware update so we'll see if they change their mind. I may as well get a new unit send out in any case just to eliminate the possibility of faulty hardware.

I do have to say that their support has been some of the quickest and easiest to deal with that I've encountered in the modern age of mass market electronics. I've never waited more than 24 hours for a reply and the issue was upgraded to more experienced support individuals automatically when the person I was dealing with had no other possible solutions.

I'm curious what your experience will entail Terry.

I'll update with any new developments or when my new unit arrives. The timing on this was a bit unfortunate as two weeks ago I had three additional DACs on hand and could have used them for testing.

 

[Tilock]

Small update. WiiM gave me access to a new beta firmware which I installed and tested. Unfortunately it did not solve the issue. I informed them of the same and I haven't heard back in 48hrs.

 

[terryforsythe]

Small update. WiiM gave me access to a new beta firmware which I installed and tested. Unfortunately it did not solve the issue. I informed them of the same and I haven't heard back in 48hrs.

I asked WiiM to roll back my firmware to the previous beta firmware that I was using. They did so, but it did not resolve the issue. So, for me, the issue may be due to a change in how Tidal is streaming music or a Linux update that may have come through for ALSA. I don't know which is the culprit.

For now, I can see the capture rate CamillaDSP is detecting, then manually change the samplerate in CamillaDSP to that capture rate. That works, but is an annoyance.

I asked WiiM if they could provide a fixed output samplerate for USB. I have not yet heard back as to whether that is an option they can provide. If they can do that, it appears that will solve my issue.

 

[Tilock]

I asked WiiM to roll back my firmware to the previous beta firmware that I was using. They did so, but it did not resolve the issue. So, for me, the issue may be due to a change in how Tidal is streaming music or a Linux update that may have come through for ALSA. I don't know which is the culprit.

For now, I can see the capture rate CamillaDSP is detecting, then manually change the samplerate in CamillaDSP to that capture rate. That works, but is an annoyance.

I asked WiiM if they could provide a fixed output samplerate for USB. I have not yet heard back as to whether that is an option they can provide. If they can do that, it appears that will solve my issue.

Thanks for the update. Given the multiple avenues for issues in your setup vs mine(WiiM direct to DAC) it might be that they are unrelated. Or it could just be some defect in how the WiiM unit shares the sample rate over USB which affects both of our individual use cases. Mine happens regardless of whether I'm using Tidal or Qobuz. WiiM informed me that the units are backordered but they should have more in around 10 days.

You might be able to solve your issue by lowering the quality rate on Tidal to "high" 16/44.1 so that is what is always being sent to CamilaDSP?

 

[terryforsythe]

You might be able to solve your issue by lowering the quality rate on Tidal to "high" 16/44.1 so that is what is always being sent to CamilaDSP?

That does address the issue. I'm fine with 44.1k, but I really would like to stay at 24bit.