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Oratory1990 has REMEASURED a load of headphones and updated his pdf's

wasnotwasnotwas

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Hi @Robbo99999 , thanks for the info :) Two questions :
  1. About your own PEQ for HD600, I have your previous one (which was 14 bands BTW, the new one is only 7 ? :oops:) and the gain you told me to apply was -6.5 dB. So what's the gain for your new PEQ ?

  2. Oratory's list includes the Sundara, but I can't find the updated PDF. The only PDF I can find is the "revised earpads - preliminary" (v2.9 from 17.09.20), so it can't be the new one. Could somebody help me find the new one ?
Thanks.

That will be the latest one for the Sundara- the OP copy from Oratory's site has the Sundara as new/ updated since 30/08/20- so a Sept entry would be the new. It doesnt so much look as if he wholesale revisited his database as does a few updates periodically as @bobbooo notes. So I dont think there being updates is news. The potential change in measurement rig noted by @Robbo99999 might be though if it keeps throwing out differences like the HD600.
 
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Robbo99999

Robbo99999

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Hi @Robbo99999 , thanks for the info :) Two questions :
  1. About your own PEQ for HD600, I have your previous one (which was 14 bands BTW, the new one is only 7 ? :oops:) and the gain you told me to apply was -6.5 dB. So what's the gain for your new PEQ ?

  2. Oratory's list includes the Sundara, but I can't find the updated PDF. The only PDF I can find is the "revised earpads - preliminary" (v2.9 from 17.09.20), so it can't be the new one. Could somebody help me find the new one ?
Thanks.
Hi Jose, you'll want -5.0dB Preamp for my HD600 EQ based on the new measurement (the 7 band EQ - only needed 7 bands to get it accurate on the target). I only needed 7 filters because his new measurement is smoother in the treble and is missing a few peaks that used to be in his old measurement.

Re. Sundara, that revised earpad pdf is actually the updated one, as it's dated later than his previous update.....so that's just a measurement with "revised earpads" whatever that means.
 
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crinacle

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Oratory has recently remeasured a load of headphones, (I think using a new firmware), and it's changed some of the frequency responses. Here is his post listing his update (incl a few new headphones he's measured too): https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/jtf6la
Here's the Sennheisser HD600 that I have showing his old measurement vs his new measurement (green line) which I imported both into REW so you can see the difference of the new firmware/setup:
View attachment 97492
I also checked for differences in another headphone I have NAD HP50, and there weren't any significant differences, virtually identical.....so this new firmware (or whatever the difference is, I'm a bit sketchy on the specific difference)....so this new firmware is changing the measurements of some headphones but not of others.

I did an EQ using the new measurement of the HD600, here it is:
View attachment 97493

And here's my old EQ I did using his old (original) measurement:
View attachment 97494
(EDIT: these are all EQ's done to the 2018 Harman Curve, which is the same target curve used by Oratory....just these EQ's are created by my own fair hand manually)

Feel free to try these out on your Sennheiser HD600, I think I prefer the EQ based on the new measurement...it's late in the day here though now & I've only done limited testing between the two....the EQ based on the new measurement I think I find wider & more open and I like the bass better, but these are only quick tests of mine when I'm tired.

Let me know what you think, and what you know about these new changes in Oratory's gear & measurements? And also perhaps if you prefer EQ's from his new measurements or his old measurements?

That's 3db change. Who would've thought?

This is a very large change. Just seach for what those two mean.

I've just now posted in reddit asking Oratory what has changed in his remeasurements given the big change in the HD600 frequency response, and if there is any significance to the new measurement equipment designator that he is posting at the bottom of his pdf files:
https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/k7ptcc

Headphones in general are very sensitive to placement variation. I can get a very wide margin of error due to a variety of reasons that include but are not limited to:
  • Location of placement (nobody can get the placement dead-centre of the centre of the driver every single time)
  • Clamp force (which can change over time, also changes depending on head width and headband setting)
  • Deformation of the ear, which shouldn't be an issue with the KB500X but still results in variation since the ear will not deform exactly the same way with each re-seat
  • Pad wear (explained here)
All in all, the differences are within margin of error.
 

bobbooo

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Re. Sundara, that revised earpad pdf is actually the updated one, as it's dated later than his previous update.....so that's just a measurement with "revised earpads" whatever that means.

Apparently HifiMan made some changes to the pads at some point to improve durability and this changed the Sundara's frequency response, fairly significantly. The measurements with the revised pads were not taken by Oratory though, but by headphones.com (as noted at the bottom of the pdf) and there's some debate whether the FR changes are definitely due to different pads or could be unit variation. Until Oratory measures a new unit and confirms the changes I'd be wary of trusting those revised pad measurements 100%.
 
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Robbo99999

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Headphones in general are very sensitive to placement variation. I can get a very wide margin of error due to a variety of reasons that include but are not limited to:
  • Location of placement (nobody can get the placement dead-centre of the centre of the driver every single time)
  • Clamp force (which can change over time, also changes depending on head width and headband setting)
  • Deformation of the ear, which shouldn't be an issue with the KB500X but still results in variation since the ear will not deform exactly the same way with each re-seat
  • Pad wear (explained here)
All in all, the differences are within margin of error.
I'm totally sure it does, but it'll be interesting to see what Oratory comes back to me with....I take it he has a set workflow/approach for working out & dealing with placement, clamp force & pad wear, so that's nothing new to him in these measurements or his old ones. Over on the reddit thread I linked earlier he has come back to me saying "Most of the time it‘s just that I get more units of the same headphone, so I measure them and then calculate the average of multiple units".......but that's a little bit of a generalised cop-out answer as I don't think it can explain how it removes those sharp peaks in the treble so effectively....not unless the new units of HD600 he measured had troughs in the corresponding places, and I doubt that....unless he disregarded some earlier/older measurements after measuring some new ones....but if he took an average of all existing measurements I very much doubt it would get rid of those treble peaks unless he measured either a significant number of new HD600 units to overwhelm the previous results or they have troughs where the peaks were on the old measurments which is unlikely (& would also be worrisome for QA in HD600). I don't think he's told us the whole story yet, and I asked him some further follow up questions.
 
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bobbooo

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Headphones in general are very sensitive to placement variation. I can get a very wide margin of error due to a variety of reasons that include but are not limited to:
  • Location of placement (nobody can get the placement dead-centre of the centre of the driver every single time)
  • Clamp force (which can change over time, also changes depending on head width and headband setting)
  • Deformation of the ear, which shouldn't be an issue with the KB500X but still results in variation since the ear will not deform exactly the same way with each re-seat
  • Pad wear (explained here)
All in all, the differences are within margin of error.

In doubt it's any of the first three, as Oratory is very methodical with his measurement process:
I measure at 5 positions (ctr, up, down, front, back) with multiple reseats.
I also forcibly break the seal on some reseats, to see how it affects this particular headphones.

For headphones with little variation I take the average.
For seal-dependent headphones (where some individual reseats would have a much lower bass response) I take the average of the best-sealing individual results at low frequencies and cross over to a total-average of all measurements somewhere in the mid-range (where the seal stops having an effect).

That leaves ether pad wear or unit variation, although he usually separates out measurements with well-worn pads, but maybe that's only when there's a really big difference between them, such as with the Beyerdynamics:

Harman 2018-Beyerdynamic DT770 (worn earpads)-Beyerdynamic DT770 (fresh earpads).png
 
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Robbo99999

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I have Hifiman HE-400i (2016), prior to finding this post, I was using "May 2020" PEQ from github by Oratory. It sounded awesome!

Now, seeing how some headphones got remeasured last month...I went looking for my new PEQ filters.

I found PEQ in 2 places:
#1. Main reddit post links to dropbox file.
How did this sound?
More boomy, so I'll have to get used to it, while testing it.
It also has preamp of -12.5dB, which cuts off the overall volume (since my previous PEQ had only preamp of -7.3dB).
#2. Then checked the usual github page, and saw new recommended PEQ filters that got updated last month.
My assumption is that they should match...but they didn't?
This matched the sound quality of my "May 2020 PEQ" from github, and it sounded great.
Very difficult to hear the difference between my previous 'May 2020 PEQ' and this one, but I'll trust the new re-measured headphones and use it.

Anyone know why the 2 aren't an exact match?
You've said you've got the 2016 version of the HE400i, so that means you should use the pdf which is for the 2016 version, and not the 2020 version, here's the 2016 version:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o5jkeetgtp817wm/Hifiman HE400i (2016).pdf?dl=0
 

RickSanchez

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Robbo99999

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I think the link / location that @sweetchaos mentions is correct. I used the same directory for my HE400i's (the non-2020 version). There are two directories on github for the HE400i's:

View attachment 97602
There's two in Oratory's database too, I'd just use Oratory's database:
https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets#wiki_full_list.3A
HiFiman Oratory listing.jpg

It's not complicated is it I guess, if you've got the 2016 version you use the 2016 version & if you've got the 2020 version you use the 2020 version. :D
 

kkeretic

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Apparently HifiMan made some changes to the pads at some point to improve durability and this changed the Sundara's frequency response, fairly significantly. Until Oratory measures a new unit and confirms the changes I'd be wary of trusting those revised pad measurements 100%.

I made my own parameters based on that revised Sundara fr graph and it sounds great to me.
 
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Dreyfus

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Could be a coupler (ear simulator) difference. Afaik he uses the newer "high-res" coupler now. That will flatten some peaks in the higher spectrum.
 

Suuup

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There's no 'firmware' change. He does these updates now and then. They're likely either additional units of each model measured and then averaged with previous measurements, or just tweaks made to the EQ curves themselves. What is big news however, is this:

https://headphonedatabase.com/oratory

His new tool to compare any number of his headphone measurements directly to each other on the same graph, with various selectable target curves. Don't think he's added all his measurements yet, but once he has this will be THE gold standard headphone measurement resource.
Glad you like it.

If anyone has a collection of proper measurements like Oratory, let me know if you want yours on the site as well. Hopefully we can gather as many comparable measurements as possible.

I do also have all the Innerfidelity measurements ready to plug into the site, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to. Does anyone know who owns those measurements now that Tyll stopped at IF?
 
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Robbo99999

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Could be a coupler (ear simulator) difference. Afaik he uses the newer "high-res" coupler now. That will flatten some peaks in the higher spectrum.
Well hopefully Oratory will reply to my follow-up question and perhaps point to the point you make & maybe some others: https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/k7ptcc/_/getjrj0 I have a feeling he won't want to answer the question beyond his earlier general response, combined with my experience in the past that he replies quite quickly & I'm yet to hear back, but we'll see.
 

wasnotwasnotwas

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Glad you like it.

If anyone has a collection of proper measurements like Oratory, let me know if you want yours on the site as well. Hopefully we can gather as many comparable measurements as possible.

I do also have all the Innerfidelity measurements ready to plug into the site, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to. Does anyone know who owns those measurements now that Tyll stopped at IF?

Stereophile, maybe? Think they own the site.
 

bigjacko

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How do we know if the measurement has changed? Is there any list or added something to the graphs?
 

bobbooo

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Could be a coupler (ear simulator) difference. Afaik he uses the newer "high-res" coupler now.

Do you have a source for that? I asked him about a month ago and he said he uses the non-hi-res RA0045 coupler (the same one Harman used when developing their targets).
 

pozz

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Glad you like it.

If anyone has a collection of proper measurements like Oratory, let me know if you want yours on the site as well. Hopefully we can gather as many comparable measurements as possible.

I do also have all the Innerfidelity measurements ready to plug into the site, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to. Does anyone know who owns those measurements now that Tyll stopped at IF?
Are you the administrator of that database? There are a lot of people working to produce headphone measurements. What criteria do you look for in the measurement setup or data?
 

bobbooo

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Glad you like it.

If anyone has a collection of proper measurements like Oratory, let me know if you want yours on the site as well. Hopefully we can gather as many comparable measurements as possible.

I do also have all the Innerfidelity measurements ready to plug into the site, but I'm not sure I'm allowed to. Does anyone know who owns those measurements now that Tyll stopped at IF?

Oh did you create the website and graph comparison tool? If so, thanks, fantastic job! It seems you can't currently use it to directly compare measurements between different rigs though, which could be useful in seeing differences in e.g. responses of various couplers etc. Could this be implemented? You might want to ask 'Resolve' (aka Andrew Park) of headphones.com if you could use his measurements, I believe he uses the same GRAS 43AG as Oratory but with the 'hi-res' RA0402 coupler instead of the RA0045. Plus @crinacle has a growing database of measurements using the same rig as headphones.com, but charges for showing more than one headphone and a target at a time on his own graph comparison tool, so maybe if you had the same limitation he'd allow you to use his data.
 
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