Octave Music Don Grusin High Resolution Music Analysis (Video)

[Miska]

Continuing this, so to correctly reconstruct RedBook from 352.8k oversampled PCM, we would need 5th order analog filter:

But now the phase response is not so nice anymore:

And the step response is not very optimal either:

And of course such wouldn't be so nice for hires PCM either. So if we use the typical 100 kHz corner, we would need 10th order filter:

Now such is not very practical anymore. But for example phase response is nicer now:

If we now increase sampling rate by factor of 32x to 1.4 MHz, we can see that 5th order filter is now enough for RedBook:

And phase response is getting tolerable too:

This is still more complex than what you find in most DACs - 2nd or 3rd order filter with -3 dB at 100 kHz.


If we increase rate to 5.6 MHz, so same as DSD128, we can see we could get away with such 2nd or
3rd order filter:

 

[kongwee]

Ahh, sorry, that one, it is just one way sweep from DC to 22.05 kHz.

Those lines above 22.05 kHz are images. On PCM, the frequency spectrum keeps repeating itself. Next band above Nyquist is inverse frequency spectrum. And then again above sampling rate it is forward and then from 44.1k + 22.05k = 66.15k it is inverse again. And so on.

Or in other words, x * fs below sampling rate you have "negative frequencies" and inverse frequency spectrum. And above sampling rate you have "positive frequecies" and forward frequency spectrum. Here "x" can be any number from 0 to infinity.

In order to correctly reconstruct analog signal from PCM, everything above Nyquist frequency must be removed. So if we start with RedBook (CD), with 44.1 kHz sampling rate and 16-bit this means you need a very steep filter to attenuate frequencies above 22.05 kHz by at least 96 dB to correctly reconstruct 16-bit resolution. For 24-bit resolution you need at least 144 dB attenuation and for 32-bit you would need 192 dB attenuation.

I'm not good in math. above the 22khz. Because of the function, it will appear in the circle I highlighted? That is without filter? At 0hz, 44hz noise appear because it is away under 22khz audio bandwith?

 

[Geert]

MI think there are lot of good music DSD releases.

Can be, but still a fraction of good PCM releases. Most top rated new releases (musically speaking) are PCM.

But if you don't find anything interesting in DSD format, then why do you bother boasting about DSD releases? I doubt you have any shortage of PCM material? And you can always convert what ever DSD source material to PCM if you think it becomes better that way.

Don't know who you are responding to, because non of this relates to anything I ever said or suggested. It's clearly you boasting about DSD, and we just trying to understand why it matters (audible impact, as a distribution format).

 

[Miska]

I'm not good in math. above the 22khz. Because of the function, it will appear in the circle I highlighted? That is without filter? At 0hz, 44hz noise appear because it is away under 22khz audio bandwith?

22.05 - 44.1 is first image band, inverse spectrum. 44.1 - 66.15 is second image band with forward spectrum (copy of the base band). 66.15 - 88.2 is third image band with inverse spectrum. This keeps repeating same way up from there. These are forward and inverse spectrum copies of the base band.

 

[Miska]

Don't know who you are responding to, because non of this relates to anything I ever said or suggested. It's clearly you boasting about DSD, and we just trying to understand why it matters (audible impact, as a distribution format).

I'm just responding when people don't understand DSD or think it is somehow bad. Responding to people boasting about PCM. Or boasting against DSD.

For me personally, when I buy content, I prefer the original format. What ever it is.

 

[kongwee]

Continuing this, so to correctly reconstruct RedBook from 352.8k oversampled PCM, we would need 5th order analog filter:
View attachment 195137
But now the phase response is not so nice anymore:
View attachment 195139
And the step response is not very optimal either:

Phase problem, is it the same with in AC signal of voltage and current are not in phase because of impedance of filter?

 

[Blumlein 88]

I still don't understand. The real signal is DC-22kHz in 10second. What is the line above that.

Miska is showing PCM dac output without any filtering which has all the imaging. Of course such a dac is a broken design. You don't see that with real DAC's. Why he thinks this has any relevance I don't know. Just an attempt to make DSD look good by twisting facts to the point of irrelevance.

 

[ctbarker32]

Don Grusin Records “Out Of Thin Air” DSD with Sanken 100K Mics (Mix Magazine)​

Location recording engineer Rob Friedrich traveled to Don Grusin’s new studio high in the Colorado Rockies to record the hi-resolution album “Out of Thin Air” with his Sanken CO-100K microphones. Friedrich, president and co-founder of Five/Four Productions, is part of the team of Grammy-winning producers and engineers that have made the company one of the most respected in the recording industry.

An in depth article about how this recording was recorded.

 

[Ricardus]

That's interesting, because in my discussion with Paul in the comments he said nothing about these mics. In fact he was saying they were using some vintage mics with didn't have an extended frequency range.

So does he ever tall the truth, or does he just not know anything?

 

[Miska]

Miska is showing PCM dac output without any filtering which has all the imaging. Of course such a dac is a broken design. You don't see that with real DAC's. Why he thinks this has any relevance I don't know. Just an attempt to make DSD look good by twisting facts to the point of irrelevance.

I have shown many measurements how much images real DACs leak. You can just look above for some. Mostly because of combination of 352.8/384k digital filter output rate and 2nd order analog filter is insufficient.

So output of modern DAC looks something like this:

So based on your definition, most DACs are broken designs with PCM inputs.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I have shown many measurements how much images real DACs leak. You can just look above for some.

So based on your definition, most DACs are broken designs with PCM inputs.

Yes and none are leaking 100 percent imaging like your most recent graphics. You continue to obfuscate rather than clarify. Not a good look for you.

 

[Purité Audio]

That's interesting, because in my discussion with Paul in the comments he said nothing about these mics. In fact he was saying they were using some vintage mics with didn't have an extended frequency range.

So does he ever tall the truth, or does he just not know anything?

Rarely tells the truth and knows almost nothing.
Keith

 

[Miska]

Yes and none are leaking 100 percent imaging like your most recent graphics. You continue to obfuscate rather than clarify. Not a good look for you.

None of the DACs also play DSD without noise filters. So I just stick to same semantics for both domains instead of trying to obfuscate like certain people here.

But practical output is like this quick and dirty simulated DAC chip output:

Or this actual DAC device output (includes the output analog filter):

Nothing strange here, you can read it all from the DAC chip datasheets already.

 

[Ricardus]

Rarely tells the truth and knows almost nothing.
Keith

That has been my conclusion too after watching about 100 of his videos. Someone I know challenged him to a cable challenge, using a null tester, and Paul wouldn't do.

 

[dc655321]

Or this actual DAC device output (includes the output analog filter):

Nothing strange here, you can read it all from the DAC chip datasheets already.

That’s just broken, not typical.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Don Grusin Records “Out Of Thin Air” DSD with Sanken 100K Mics (Mix Magazine)​

An in depth article about how this recording was recorded.

Odd microphone design. Response rises starting at 10 khz, reaching 20 db peaks at 20 khz and 50 khz with response to 100 khz. The reason for doing this is so you can capture those ultrasonics without being close miked. Makes up for absorption by the air at a distance.

 

[Rottmannash]

This is the wideband spectrum of a current class D amplifier. Before 'yall start squallering about the ultrasonic noise of DSD, you might want to get rid of your class D amps. Just a suggestion.

View attachment 194695

Luckily I have to pay only once for the production of that noise.

You missed the point: high-res is bought mostly by people who think they want it. If they didn't, this label would not be producing DSD content. To them, having real high res matters.

Back to Mark, I actually passed the double blind tests he helped create for public:

These are the AIX challenge that was posted on another forum a few years ago.
=============

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/11 06:18:47

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Mosaic_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Mosaic_B2.wav

06:18:47 : Test started.
06:19:38 : 00/01 100.0%
06:20:15 : 00/02 100.0%
06:20:47 : 01/03 87.5%
06:21:01 : 01/04 93.8%
06:21:20 : 02/05 81.3%
06:21:32 : 03/06 65.6%
06:21:48 : 04/07 50.0%
06:22:01 : 04/08 63.7%
06:22:15 : 05/09 50.0%
06:22:24 : 05/10 62.3%
06:23:15 : 06/11 50.0%
06:23:27 : 07/12 38.7%
06:23:36 : 08/13 29.1%
06:23:49 : 09/14 21.2%
06:24:02 : 10/15 15.1%
06:24:10 : 11/16 10.5%
06:24:20 : 12/17 7.2%
06:24:27 : 13/18 4.8%
06:24:35 : 14/19 3.2%
06:24:40 : 15/20 2.1%
06:24:46 : 16/21 1.3%
06:24:56 : 17/22 0.8%
06:25:04 : 18/23 0.5%
06:25:13 : 19/24 0.3%
06:25:25 : 20/25 0.2%
06:25:32 : 21/26 0.1%
06:25:38 : 22/27 0.1%
06:25:45 : 23/28 0.0%
06:25:51 : 24/29 0.0%
06:25:58 : 25/30 0.0%
06:26:24 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 25/30 (0.0%)

===========
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/10 21:01:16

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Just_My_Imagination_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Just_My_Imagination_B2.wav

21:01:16 : Test started.
21:02:11 : 01/01 50.0%
21:02:20 : 02/02 25.0%
21:02:28 : 03/03 12.5%
21:02:38 : 04/04 6.3%
21:02:47 : 05/05 3.1%
21:02:56 : 06/06 1.6%
21:03:06 : 07/07 0.8%
21:03:16 : 08/08 0.4%
21:03:26 : 09/09 0.2%
21:03:45 : 10/10 0.1%
21:03:54 : 11/11 0.0%
21:04:11 : 12/12 0.0%
21:04:24 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

==========

oo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/10 18:50:44

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\On_The_Street_Where_You_Live_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\On_The_Street_Where_You_Live_B2.wav

18:50:44 : Test started.
18:51:25 : 00/01 100.0%
18:51:38 : 01/02 75.0%
18:51:47 : 02/03 50.0%
18:51:55 : 03/04 31.3%
18:52:05 : 04/05 18.8%
18:52:21 : 05/06 10.9%
18:52:32 : 06/07 6.3%
18:52:43 : 07/08 3.5%
18:52:59 : 08/09 2.0%
18:53:10 : 09/10 1.1%
18:53:19 : 10/11 0.6%
18:53:23 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/11 (0.6%)

I failed those miserably, sad to say. My ears aren't as "golden" as I thought.

 

[Rottmannash]

Amir, people just like the sound of DSD. Vinyl is outselling digital and we all know that it’s inferior to digital measurement wise. People buy things for all sorts of reasons some want the best sound quality and some for the collectibility.

I like Mark and his input. He’s honest and a really good sound enigeer. Im sorry to hear he’s not doing too well (if that’s true).

For starters, he’s 100% correct about AES listing resampling to high res as “high res” when it’s not. I also admire that he records in high res all the way through.

It is my belief that our current analog production technology hasn’t caught up to the digital side of things. For instance No dac can play true 24 bit so we can’t even say what it sounds like yet!

I think these discussions and debates are great because it pushes things further. Clarifies things as well

Where are the blind tests confirming people who "like the sound of DSD" can reliably discern those files from .flac?

 

[Rottmannash]

No goalpost was moved. CD Quality is used even on all streaming services.

…And production wise as well. Most lossless titles on streaming is not high res. They are of CD quality

Ever heard of Qobuz?

 

[Blumlein 88]

None of the DACs also play DSD without noise filters. So I just stick to same semantics for both domains instead of trying to obfuscate like certain people here.

But practical output is like this quick and dirty simulated DAC chip output:
View attachment 195229

Or this actual DAC device output (includes the output analog filter):
View attachment 195230


Nothing strange here, you can read it all from the DAC chip datasheets already.

So the first substantial spike there is at near 400 khz. Not really all that worrisome to me. Be better if it weren't there, but again not a real big concern. Again obfuscation in continuing to show these megahertz graphs when we've little to no reason to think they impact what we listen to for music.