• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Objectivist vs. Subjectivist: The Never-Ending Debates -- Is the Sun Warm?

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,963
Likes
16,845
Location
Monument, CO
In the vein of my ancient "Pet Rock" objectivist vs. subjectivist post, I offer this new post about proving things (or not).

O: The sun provides light and warmth.
S: Light, yes, I can see that, but not warmth.
O: What do you mean? You can feel the warmth, and we can measure it.
S: The warmth comes from my furnace.
O: Where the sun shines, it is warmer.
S: It does not matter if the sun is out or not, my furnace keeps my house warm.
O: Your furnace runs more when the sun is not out. Check your energy bill.
S: How do you know? Not in my house.
O: Check how often it runs when it is cold and the sun is not out.
S: That's not logical, when it's cold we stay inside more, so of course the furnace runs more. And our energy bill is higher.
O: Have you timed how long the furnace runs when it is sunny and when it is not?
S: No, why should I conduct some silly experiment when I already know the answer?
O: OK, we can measure the energy of the sun using earth- and space-based instruments like spectrometers.
S: You guys always retreat into science mumbo-jumbo and lord it over us because we don't need all that science stuff in the real world.
O: What about the lights in your house? They get hot, right? It is not just light, they give off heat as well.
S: Of course, silly, because they use electricity, just like my heater. Where does the sun get its electricity, a long extension cord? <roll eyes>
O: It makes its own energy through fusion.
S: You guys always make up stuff you can't explain. I remember from my high school physics class that you can't make energy from nothing, that leads to perpetual motion and that is impossible because the energy can't last forever. I thought you'd know that.
O: The sun won't last forever, it will eventually die out.
S: When? And still does not explain how it gets its electricity.
O: I don't know, billions of years? And I did explain it, through hydrogen fusion.
S: So you "say" it will happen but have no proof and put it so far in the future that nobody can prove it. How is that science? And "fusion" is just a fancy word, that does not explain where the sun gets its electricity.
O: Have you ever actually had a science class?
S: Sure, have you?
<<Thread closed>>
 
Last edited:
OP
DonH56

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,963
Likes
16,845
Location
Monument, CO
For reference, here is the Pet Rock Post, from many years ago:

I keep posting this old one of mine but it keeps ringing true:

People like to help each other, and do not like it when their help is questioned. Beliefs enter into it, people get riled, conversation degenerates.

Example:

A: I just added a new Pet Rock to my system, the imaging is better, a veil was lifted, bass is better, you have to get one of these!
B. I do not see how a pet rock can do any of that. Have you measured the system?
A: Why would I care about measurements? I can hear it!
B. There's no way a pet rock can do that. Without measurements, you have no proof.
A: What do you mean "no proof"? Didn't I just say I can hear a difference?
B: That is not proof. You need to run a controlled test, have somebody place and remove the pet rock several times and see if you can tell when it is there.
A: I don't need some test, I can tell it works! And I just had my friend over and he heard it too so there!
B: That's ridiculous you are both nuts. I'm just trying to save you money.
A: OK, I found an article by the Pet Rock Sound chief engineer. I don't understand it, but he says it aligns the molecular flow of the universe inside my room and that's why it works.
B: Sounds like marketing. What measurements did they take?
A: There's a graph, it shows ripples in the force without the Pet Rock that are gone when it is added. Happy now?
B: No, that is meaningless. You are all mad.
A: Well, prove it! Measure the molecular flow with and without a Pet Rock and see the difference! Then you can see and show us all why it works.
B: That is nuts and I don't have anything like that kind of equipment.
A: Then you can't prove it doesn't work! You're a geek with no ears!
B: You have so much expectation bias it is running out of your ears. No wonder you think you hear something.
A; Snooty objectivist scumbag.
B: Ignorant gullible subjectivist.
<Thread closed>

THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE! No relation to any actual people, audio systems, or Pet Rocks is implied. No Pet Rocks were harmed in the making of this post.
 

q3cpma

Major Contributor
Joined
May 22, 2019
Messages
3,060
Likes
4,429
Location
France
That's just making fun of dumb people? Fun, but gets old very fast. Sorry if there's more to it that I don't get here.

Anyway, here's the proper way:
A: I just added a new Pet Rock to my system, the imaging is better, a veil was lifted, bass is better, you have to get one of these!
B: Retard (written or thought, depending on the place)
B: *goes away*
 
Last edited:
OP
DonH56

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,963
Likes
16,845
Location
Monument, CO
That's just making fun of dumb people? Fun, but gets old very fast. Sorry if there's more to it that I don't get here.

Anyway, here's the proper way:
A: I just added a new Pet Rock to my system, the imaging is better, a veil was lifted, bass is better, you have to get one of these!
B: Retard (written or thought, depending on the place)
B: *goes away*

Had not thought of it that way, but then I am a crude U.S. American cowboy without a sophisticated sense of humor. Report it and the Moderator can delete it, but the inability to say anything without offending somebody seems way overblown these days. As @dc655321 said, perhaps the easiest thing would be to add me to your ignore list.
 

q3cpma

Major Contributor
Joined
May 22, 2019
Messages
3,060
Likes
4,429
Location
France
Had not thought of it that way, but then I am a crude U.S. American cowboy without a sophisticated sense of humor. Report it and the Moderator can delete it, but the inability to say anything without offending somebody seems way overblown these days. As @dc655321 said, perhaps the easiest thing would be to add me to your ignore list.
Wow, no problem, mate. I'm absolutely not against this, just didn't see the point because I thought there was one.
 
OP
DonH56

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,963
Likes
16,845
Location
Monument, CO
Wow, no problem, mate. I'm absolutely not against this, just didn't see the point because I thought there was one.

Nope, no point, just an anecdotal tale. The Pet Rock story was actually from around 1998 that I posted on a trumpet forum and modified much later for an audio forum. Hopefully it is just an opportunity to take a lighter look at how we interact and not take ourselves too seriously. If it in itself is too offensive I'll ask that the posts be deleted.
 
OP
DonH56

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,963
Likes
16,845
Location
Monument, CO
For those tired of trying to convince the opposition that 1+1 = 2 (for engineering/math/science geeks: 1+1 = 3 for very large values of 1):

 

Wes

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
3,843
Likes
3,803
The Pet Rock story conflates measurements with listening tests.

B. There's no way a pet rock can do that. Without measurements, you have no proof.
A: What do you mean "no proof"? Didn't I just say I can hear a difference?
B: That is not proof. You need to run a controlled test, have somebody place and remove the pet rock several times and see if you can tell when it is there.
 
OP
DonH56

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,963
Likes
16,845
Location
Monument, CO
The Pet Rock story conflates measurements with listening tests.

B. There's no way a pet rock can do that. Without measurements, you have no proof.
A: What do you mean "no proof"? Didn't I just say I can hear a difference?
B: That is not proof. You need to run a controlled test, have somebody place and remove the pet rock several times and see if you can tell when it is there.

A controlled listening test produces statistical results.
 

muslhead

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
1,584
Likes
1,799
my the world has changed. everything, everywhere by everyone now must be politically correct othrtwise someones feelings are going to get hurt, Apparently it has even migrated to audio formus.
 

restorer-john

Grand Contributor
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Messages
12,858
Likes
39,477
Location
Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
my the world has changed. everything, everywhere by everyone now must be politically correct othrtwise someones feelings are going to get hurt, Apparently it has even migrated to audio formus.

People have gotten far too soft. As my father (88yo) and I say, the world needs a decent war to remind us all what is important and what isn't. And we need the decades of hope and innovation that come after a major conflict.

And if someone, somewhere gets their "feelings" hurt by me saying that, tough luck.
 

muslhead

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
1,584
Likes
1,799
People have gotten far too soft. As my father (88yo) and I say, the world needs a decent war to remind us all what is important and what isn't. And we need the decades of hope and innovation that come after a major conflict.

And if someone, somewhere gets their "feelings" hurt by me saying that, tough luck.
Apparently we had the same father :)
 

Raindog123

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 23, 2020
Messages
1,599
Likes
3,556
Location
Melbourne, FL, USA
B: There's no way a pet rock MQA can do that. Without measurements, you have no proof.
A: What do you mean "no proof"? Didn't I just say I can hear a difference?
B: That is not proof. You need to run a controlled test, have somebody place and remove the pet rock several times and see if you can tell when it is there...
A: OK, I found an article by the Pet Rock MQA Sound chief engineer. I don't understand it, but he says it aligns the molecular flow of the universe inside my room and that's why it works.
B: Sounds like marketing. What measurements did they take?
A: There's a graph, it shows ripples in the force without the Pet Rock MQA that are gone when it is added. Happy now?
B: No, that is meaningless. You are all mad.
A: Well, prove it! Measure the molecular flow with and without a Pet Rock MQA and see the difference! Then you can see and show us all why it works.
B: That is nuts and I don't have anything like that kind of equipment.
A: Then you can't prove it doesn't work! You're a geek with no ears...
<Thread closed>


Ha! Did not we just go through 100 pages of exactly this, literally!? :)
 
Last edited:

JSmith

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 8, 2021
Messages
5,303
Likes
13,750
Location
Algol Perseus
1619749810019.png




JSmith
 

Longshan

Active Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2021
Messages
230
Likes
260
People have gotten far too soft. As my father (88yo) and I say, the world needs a decent war to remind us all what is important and what isn't. And we need the decades of hope and innovation that come after a major conflict.

And if someone, somewhere gets their "feelings" hurt by me saying that, tough luck.


Absolute rubbish from you and your father.
 
OP
DonH56

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,963
Likes
16,845
Location
Monument, CO
counting is not measuring - discontinuous vs. continuous

You know, you don't have to read the posts... This is why I need to stay off internet fora.
 
Top Bottom