New review of Canton Reference 7K speaker with measurments...

[Crosstalk]

Again, the current Canton Reference K series is nowadays also 7 years old and the Blade was just replaced few weeks ago, why would the argumentation change what is a good or not loudspeaker?


With the same argumentation style someone could also nitpick on the R7 you show as an example which direct on-axis sound isn't flat but has a tilted warm FR which will be always and more easily audible than the increased HD at the upper mids/lower highs.


Exactly, going to every related thread and writing how bad the HD of Canton is, while it is one of the less important and audible issues. Imagine now someone would go to every KEF R related thread and start writing that they are not flat on-axis but have a tilted FR so that they are "bad performing loudspeakers" and "ridiculous"...

Unless you are a Canton speaker owner, I really don't understand your effort in trying to 'save' this speaker from criticism. I still stand by my point, at 4k price, this issue isnt acceptable as there are several speakers which doesnt have this issue, and has better f3. May be 7 years back when they launched it would have been something but in 2022, when better speakers are available, without that horrible bass bump and distortion in lower treble and better bass extension. Unless you are a die hard fan of the brand, or you are obliged to buy from Canton, to me this speaker is a mediocre speaker glorified by reviews, We have stuff with good objective results at this range. For 4k KEF R11 easily objectively outclasses this.

Hope they come up with a new one soon, as this is a standard which is already old. The bar has been pushed up since 2016. And instead of trying to sell an old model with some marketing, they can come up with some new one which competes the current standards. If you look up the reviews too, most German reviews are few years old. If you look up 'Video' magazines review and 'Audio' magazines review: even they gave a better score to the KEF R11 which is less priced than this canton. Video and Audio are the same magazines, who share the lab with Stereoplay. Unfortunately Stereoplay did not review the R11. ELAC on the other hand is a company which objectively performs better than Canton with their current line up. Cantons best and value for money to me is still Vento Series. Ref K is aesthetically better but objectively not.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

to me this speaker is a mediocre speaker glorified by reviews

Im pretty sure thewas is not a owner but is not something relevant
I guess thewas and test just wanted to point that problem doesnt make the speaker so bad, it's very hard to find a perfect measure speaker and also " relative cheap"
R series arent perfect, the FR is not nice as the kef Reference line, I'm pretty sure the new R series meta will come with a nicer FR than the Currently r series from 2018.
So much speakers and another stuff have plenty of glory from reviews anyway, is not something very important


That being said, even the reviewer from hifi-voice pointed the 3rd harmonic distortion thing.

Personally once I find the distortion its very hard to me to forget about that distortion and its more easy to find it again in the future.
But yeah in 2022 there is plenty of low distortion speaker if you looking for that.

I started to search info honestly because Canton started to selling speakers in my country

 

[thewas]

Unless you are a Canton speaker owner, I really don't understand your effort in trying to 'save' this speaker from criticism.

Like @BrokenEnglishGuy writes I am not an owner of current Canton loudspeakers, but rather the opposite, namely KEF (even 2 pairs) but I try to stand objective enough to see when someone exaggerates an issue which really isn't a significant one.

Funnily at the same time last night Sean Olive posted also in the other thread this comment

The problem is that it is not perceptually based and doesn't take into account masking.

While it's indicative of a problem with the speaker it's not very good at predicting audibility or effect on sound quality. A speaker with higher THD can sound better than one with lower THD as has been demonstrated by researchers like Alex Voishvillo.

source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...r-preference-score.31454/page-35#post-1118218

where he (repeatedly) reminds that the Harman research hasn't shown a significant correlation of (T)HD to the audibility and preference, unlike frequency response and directivity.

Im pretty sure thewas is not a owner but is not something relevant
I guess thewas and test just wanted to point that problem doesnt make the speaker so bad, it's very hard to find a perfect measure speaker and also " relative cheap"
R series arent perfect, the FR is not nice as the Reference line, I'm pretty sure the new R series meta will come with a nicer FR than the Currently r series from 2018.

Thank you, we fully agree here.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Funnily at the same time last night Sean Olive posted also in the other thread this comment


source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...r-preference-score.31454/page-35#post-1118218

where he (repeatedly) reminds that the Harman research hasn't shown a significant correlation of (T)HD to the audibility and preference, unlike frequency response and directivity.

I sended a PM to him

I said
''
I have a question, when we talk about a '' A speaker with higher THD can sound better than one with lower THD as has been demonstrated by researchers like Alex Voishvillo ''

Is there any limits to what did you say?, let me explain what i want to mean please

For example, I see some horn speakers with very low 3rd harmonic distortion ( in a few words, the bad distortion ), and the 2nd harmonic distortion seems to dominate the THD (the '' good '' distortion), <high 2nd harmonic distortion and low 3rd harmonic distortion>

This will result in a '' high '' thd but 2nd order dominated, but others speakers have 3rd harmonic distortion domain, in this case where speakers have a 3rd haromic distortion at about 1% (the place where the line it's always draw) and low 2nd harmonic distortion, that's the case when the THD (dominated by the 3rd harmonic distortion) is audible?
''
Sean O. say:

''
You are getting at that the reason why higher THD might sound better than lower THD.

THD is the sum of all harmonics expressed as percentage but it is the higher ones that are more audible. This is because the higher frequency or higher product distortions are not easily masked compared to the lower ones closer to the frequency of the test signal or music.

A more perceptually sensitive method would be to weight the higher order distortion products higher than the lower ones. That is in fact what some people do but it still a crude approach to predicting audibility of distortion because audibility is very signal dependent: the spectrum and the temporal characteristics matter''

So.. yeah, the Canton has THD dominated by 3rd harmonic distortion.

He also talk about the weight of higher order distortions should be higher, I agree.

Edit:
I also asked how much only 1% of distortion is audible at 2khz.
He say:

''
I don't think you can generalize and say 3rd harmonic distortion at 1% is audible. With a sine wave yes but the spectral density of the signal determines whether it will be masked and audible. Masking also changes with overall level, The masking curves get broader at higher SPL.

There is simultaneous masking and temporal masking. The former is where the masker (the original signal) and target signal (the distortion) are synchronizes in time. Temporal masking occurs when the masker and target are separated in time (forward masking) or backward masking. If the distortion rings over time (like a door panel buzzing in a car) it will be easily heard with a transient sound -- but less audible with a continuous sound like pink noise. Forward masking has much greater masking than backward masking (where target occurs before the masker).. Audio compression codecs like MP3 produce pre-ringing which can be quite audible depending on the temporal characteristics of the signal.
''

Again, thank you very much
Well, I don't have anything to add. He have lots of more knowledge than me.

 

[thewas]

You are welcome and thanks for posting Olives replies here, also by the way we don't know if the Blade THD peak is mainly based on 2nd or 3rd one.

 

[Crosstalk]

End of the day , this speaker has still nasty 100 hz bump and the audible distorion. What are the better options to this speaker at its price?

 

[Crosstalk]

Im pretty sure thewas is not a owner but is not something relevant
I guess thewas and test just wanted to point that problem doesnt make the speaker so bad, it's very hard to find a perfect measure speaker and also " relative cheap"
R series arent perfect, the FR is not nice as the kef Reference line, I'm pretty sure the new R series meta will come with a nicer FR than the Currently r series from 2018.
So much speakers and another stuff have plenty of glory from reviews anyway, is not something very important


That being said, even the reviewer from hifi-voice pointed the 3rd harmonic distortion thing.

Personally once I find the distortion its very hard to me to forget about that distortion and its more easy to find it again in the future.
But yeah in 2022 there is plenty of low distortion speaker if you looking for that.

I started to search info honestly because Canton started to selling speakers in my country

You can relax, as objectively your R7 is superior to this canton in every ways. May be you can look forward to KEF References or R series Metas when they come out.

 

[charleski]

even lowers SNR produced by excellent DACs like a topping d90

The entire point of DACs with huge amounts of dynamic range like the D90 is to provide headroom for DSP.

 

[Crosstalk]

The entire point of DACs with huge amounts of dynamic range like the D90 is to provide headroom for DSP.

I understood this point, and that made me understand the superior capability of speakers like KEF over the cantons. The Cantons have the nasty distortion in lower treble. So we cannot eq it out. But KEF R7 and R11 can be eqed to sound flat as it has very good head room. I was thinking the Cantons flat freq out of the box was superior eaarlier, but thats not needed as I learned from here.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

The amp is dead silent, I hear no noise when it’s on near the tweeter. Also, has some excellent grip in controlling the drivers- woofers mids and tweeters. I am currenlty using it directly with a chord mojo as a pre amp. Detail retrieval is excellent; tonally very neutral “cold” and boring imo! Think I need to get it’s own pre to “color” it a bit. Or get the canton which has that midbass bump a little. Actually I looked at all other graphs of the speaker it seems like it’s only a 3db bump not a 6 db. 3 db is ok for me. Bass performance is not the best in terms of extension at its price but in terms of bass clarity from what I heard it excellent. It does only 43hz at -3db for 5200€ a pair.

I have a short question
What speaker are you pointing here?

I was thinking the Cantons flat freq out of the box was superior eaarlier

''Flat'' FR is not that hard that get, most actives monitors have some filters in order to make them flatter
pd: If we need to know how much '' flat '' a speaker is, we need to measure it using Klippel NFS measurements. ( Amir or Erin )

 

[Crosstalk]

I have a short question
What speaker are you pointing here?

''Flat'' FR is not that hard that get, most actives monitors have some filters in order to make them flatter
pd: If we need to know how much '' flat '' a speaker is, we need to measure it using Klippel NFS measurements. ( Amir or Erin )

i was talking about my amp here, not speakers. Speakers are canton vento 896s. They are not perfect, but not bad either. For the lower price, performance is acceptable. I replaced them with R11.

 

[valerianf]

Could this high distorsion in the midrange be related to the ceramic membrane?
I still don't understand why using this material when during decades others have made good results:
Paper, glass fiber...
After reading this thread I think that the best choice is to find an older Canton speaker made before the ceramic switching.

 

[test1223]

Could this high distorsion in the midrange be related to the ceramic membrane?
I still don't understand why using this material when during decades others have made good results:
Paper, glass fiber...
After reading this thread I think that the best choice is to find an older Canton speaker made before the ceramic switching.

Sorry, but your conclusion, and the conclusion of others here, are simply wrong. There are other imperfections, which can very easily outweigh the HD distortion by a lot. It is not possible to estimate the quality of canton speaker by these measurements. Without a spinorama it is very hard to say anything good or bad about speakers. And even with a spinorama you have a broad range of tolerance where a speaker with a lower preference score sounds better. Plenty of different linear and nonlinear distortion play a role and HD distortion in the given range is very unimportant in comparison with other typical occuring distortions.

Certain types of ceramics provide very good properties for using as a membrane. E.g. very good chassis are made of ceramics by accuton.

 

[valerianf]

Canton GLE 90
Speaker material: Aluminum/Titanium

Canton GLE 90 Review

True to their Heritage – A good deal of Vento technology propels the new Canton GLE forward again compared to its predecessor. Costs were mainly cut regarding the cabinet.

stereo-magazine.com

Without ceramic treatment, the measured distortion seems far lower around 3khz.
I am surprised because I do not like Aluminum/Titanium material for mid-range and woofer.

 

[Crosstalk]

Canton GLE 90
Speaker material: Aluminum/Titanium
View attachment 194521

Canton GLE 90 Review

True to their Heritage – A good deal of Vento technology propels the new Canton GLE forward again compared to its predecessor. Costs were mainly cut regarding the cabinet.

stereo-magazine.com

Without ceramic treatment, the measured distortion seems far lower around 3khz.
I am surprised because I do not like Aluminum/Titanium material for mid-range and woofer.

thats true, I too have checked the most of Canton vento measurements and they all seems to be cleaner than Reference line. It looks like those measurements you posted are from stereo.de. They dont say at what loudness these distortion figures are. So I think stereoplay or audio has better detailed measurements with loudness levels.

 

[Scottso]

I would love to see an ASC through review of the Canton 9K two-way by Amir. I have them but I'm on the east coast and fear they would not make the trip out and back in one piece.
I'm no audiophile but they sound great to me from Led Zepplin to Yo-Yo Ma, From Bill Evans to Muddy Waters. Maybe even compare them with a similar KEF.AS far as distortion, I'm 75 my hearing is not like a 20 year old.
Distortion I don't hear no stinking distortion.

 

[dogmamann]

I owned this speaker previously and I heard no nasty distortion while I had it too. May be the measurement with Klippel at one place is not similar to another when it comes to distortion like this person says here
:

Post in thread 'Ascend Acoustics Announces New Klippel NFS-Optimized Sierra Towers and Horizon Center'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-towers-and-horizon-center.39567/post-1398700

 

[dogmamann]

I would love to see an ASC through review of the Canton 9K two-way by Amir. I have them but I'm on the east coast and fear they would not make the trip out and back in one piece.
I'm no audiophile but they sound great to me from Led Zepplin to Yo-Yo Ma, From Bill Evans to Muddy Waters. Maybe even compare them with a similar KEF.AS far as distortion, I'm 75 my hearing is not like a 20 year old.
Distortion I don't hear no stinking distortion.

Don’t worry, I think the measurements had a mistake; the canton reference speakers are on the state of the art level, when it comes to performance in every possible ways. I had the 7K and it never distorted anyways even with ear breaking loudness. Absolutely stunning sound. I had listened to KEF references before. They are ok, speakers but different sound. I won’t say one is superior than the other.

 

[dogmamann]

I sended a PM to him

I said
''
I have a question, when we talk about a '' A speaker with higher THD can sound better than one with lower THD as has been demonstrated by researchers like Alex Voishvillo ''

Is there any limits to what did you say?, let me explain what i want to mean please

For example, I see some horn speakers with very low 3rd harmonic distortion ( in a few words, the bad distortion ), and the 2nd harmonic distortion seems to dominate the THD (the '' good '' distortion), <high 2nd harmonic distortion and low 3rd harmonic distortion>

This will result in a '' high '' thd but 2nd order dominated, but others speakers have 3rd harmonic distortion domain, in this case where speakers have a 3rd haromic distortion at about 1% (the place where the line it's always draw) and low 2nd harmonic distortion, that's the case when the THD (dominated by the 3rd harmonic distortion) is audible?
''
Sean O. say:






So.. yeah, the Canton has THD dominated by 3rd harmonic distortion.

He also talk about the weight of higher order distortions should be higher, I agree.

Edit:
I also asked how much only 1% of distortion is audible at 2khz.
He say:


Again, thank you very much
Well, I don't have anything to add. He have lots of more knowledge than me.

I think you are blowing up this issue a lot. I went through some of your old posts before you saw your own speakers measurements. One thing caught me was you yourself had pushed your R7 to distortion territory in bass region and you did not hear it.

Post in thread 'KEF R7 - Is It Worth It?'
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-r7-is-it-worth-it.17236/post-846331

After some months, after you learned about distortion you started looking deep into it and in this case you are just going by the numbers

As per you comment history R7 is the only floorstanders you owned until this point and before that it was a R300. Both are very narrow sounding speakers. Even if the cantons have a problem with the distortion at higher levels it has a wider radiation, and cumulatively flat response, in the listening window with just +/-1 db across the line which is on par with kefs top of the line speakers. Before making conclusions just try listening one, with all the data in your mind.

 

[dogmamann]

Well, we learn in the other thread that ''timming'' thing is basically non sense..
So yeah, correct the in room bass response and you done, there is no resonances, distortion or weird directivity for R11

This is not nonsense. If I send a 50hz signal to a woofer for 2 seconds and if it continues to vibrate 50 times for 2 seconds and doesn’t immediately stop, but continue to vibrate in a lower amplitude for another second until it completely becomes to rest, you have a timing problem.