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New Open Baffle Speaker from Clayton Shaw

Shiva

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Here, a video from New Record Day, talking about and listening to the latest open baffle speaker design from Clayton Shaw. I Became a fan of his designs after first listening to a pair of his speakers at the Show Newport, quite a few years ago. His latest, The Caladan. I became a fan of NRD for the pains he goes through in attempting to make good recording for Youtube. Headphones if you got em. If you don't want to watch the whole vid, the price is stated at $2950.

 
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goryu

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Didn't he just sell his audio/speaker company? Guess he didn't have a non-compete agreement....
 

Nwickliff

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Didn't he just sell his audio/speaker company? Guess he didn't have a non-compete agreement....
What speaker maker ever has? There’s only so many ways to make an open baffle speaker too, soo….and so many drivers to choose from.

I wanna know what 12in woofers he is using that play smoothly up to 1k
 

Anton D

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I look forward to hearing them.

I really liked the video, the prices seem quite reasonable, and that damned You Tube recording even sounds good on my crap Logitech computer speakers.

I tend to have a subjective fondness for open baffle speakers.
 

Anton D

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I ordered a pair. If you’re ever in the Napa area, please stop by our vineyard for a listening session with some great wine.
Holy cow, that is awesome!

That went into my future planning book!

Man, exciting in both dimensions - wine and song!

Which vineyard?
 

audiogeek

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I watched this video a few days ago before I saw this thread and it piqued my interest for sure. I have been subscribed to NRDs You Tube channel for years now. Also subscribed to GR Research Danny channel (don't hate me)for many years.

NRD Also confirms GR Research Danny claims that open baffle is the way to go.

I watch almost all of Danny's GR Research videos. I know he is not very well liked by some of you here but I think his speaker measurements and advise are non biased and very informative.

Here is an older video by NRD reviewing GR Research open baffle speakers.


Most reviews claim the open baffle woofers are awesome for music but lacking the punch for movies. GR Research has open baffle servo subs as well. This review touches on the bass.


And Danny's response


I wonder if the bass on the Caladan is up to par for movies...
 
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meracus

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Does anyone have corrected eq curves of the old turbo s ?
Anything measurements
Thanks
 

kemmler3D

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Those look like Dayton Tweeters. I'm not sure how you get a 12" to properly cross over to a tweeter but I'm open to an explanation.
Depends on the tweeter. A 12" will start beaming at some point just like anything else, so if you can play the tweeter low enough (someone mentioned 1khz, that's getting there) crossing them reasonably well is possible.

Then again, I haven't heard a lot of OBs but I imagine you might perceive directivity differently than you would with a box speaker, so maybe it's not as big a deal.
 

ctrl

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NRD Also confirms GR Research Danny claims that open baffle is the way to go.
But you have to make a clear distinction between Clayton Shaw's classic OB concept for the woofers, and Danny's flawed V-frame concept used with NX-Otica and NX-Treme.

With a well-designed classic OB concept, you get the desired dipole radiation. The frequency responses at different angles run parallel to the on-axis FR for small angles and have the maximum extinction at 90°.
A woofer (here 10'', no XO) in a flat baffle like the CALADAN speaker will show horizontal measurements like:
1700263317783.png 1700256081017.png

FR hor deg0°-90°
1700256482215.png
FR hor deg0°-90° normalized, normalized full sonogram (till 3kHz), polar diagram 100Hz and 400Hz (shows the dipole behavior)
1700256498302.png 1700256510454.png 1700256688521.png 1700256719299.png
So the woofer shows nearly textbook dipole behavior. There will be some vertical inter-driver interference of the two 12'' woofer and problems in vertical radiation around the XO frequency because of the large distance of both woofer to the tweeter.

In the CALADAN speaker the XO frequency is 1kHz. The tweeter is not an open baffle driver, but a normal tweeter. This makes the radiation above the crossover frequency somewhat uneven because the tweeter has a wider radiation in the 1-5kHz range as the woofers up to 1kHz.

Above 1kHz the CALADAN speaker is a normal boxed speaker with a wide baffle (which makes the radiation of the tweeter somewhat narrower, which is positive for the transition to the woofer).


In contrast, Danny's V-frame concept used for NX-Otica and NX-Treme has problems with resonances caused by the V-frame baffle.
If woofers are put into a V-frame baffle, the "wings act as a resonator chamber". In the area around the resonance, the speaker then no longer radiates as a dipole, but extremely unevenly and worse than any normal speaker.
1700263238696.png 1700261889050.png
FR hor deg0°-90° normalized, normalized full sonogram
1700261933076.png 1700262297651.png
If you compare this radiation with that of the classic OB speaker above, it becomes clear that basically the woofers in the V-frame baffle only have optimum dipole radiation up to about 100Hz, then the resonance becomes noticeable.

If the midrange drivers also have a V-frame baffle, the problem is repeated and if the depth of the wings is different, the resonant frequency also changes.
This is also shown by Danny's own measurements (the more the angle increases, the higher the SPL of the resonances at 270Hz, 570Hz and 1200Hz become):
1700262580287.png
More details can be found here.

So if "open baffle is the way to go", then NX-Otica and NX-Treme are out of the question for this, as there is no dipole radiation that one would expect with an OB concept.

With the CALADAN speaker you should get the expected dipole radiation up to the crossover frequency at 1kHz and above that the speaker behaves like any other normal speaker with width baffle.
 

ctrl

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I'm not sure how you get a 12" to properly cross over to a tweeter but I'm open to an explanation.

Agree, one can't make such a transition perfectly with a speaker like the CALADAN (CAL).
The wide baffle helps to narrow the wide dispersion of the tweeter. The baffle therefore acts like a "large, but very flat, waveguide".

I made a quick simulation with a baffle identical in width to the CAL. Instead of 12'' the woofer the simulation uses a 10''woofer and a 1'' dome tweeter. I had no motivation to adapt the simulation completely to the CAL.
The example is also only intended to show the basic problems that can occur. To save computing time, the simulation was only carried out up to 5kHz and is therefore only reliable up to this frequency range, so please ignore everything above 5kHz.
1700266097816.png
1700265560832.png

With the (active) simulated FR for the woofer and tweeter, a fourth-order Linkwitz-Riley filter at 1kHz was then applied in VCAD.
I lowered the on-axis frequency response slightly in the 1.5-5kHz range to compensate for the wider radiation of the tweeter. Otherwise the tweeter would sound too aggressive in our example.
1700267291906.png 1700267660425.png
In the CTA-2034 diagram you can see very clearly in the sound power directivity index (SPDI) that above 1.5kHz the tweeter's radiation clearly widens.
In the crossover frequency range around 1kHz, vertical cancellation of the sound radiation results in a discontinuity that is noticeable as a whole in the SPDI.

The horizontal FR 0-90 deg shows the expected widening. And the normalized full sonogram shows unusual radiation.
1700268320720.png 1700268353628.png

In our example, the horizontal "radiation angle" (-6dB) would widen from 110° around 700Hz to 180° around 3-5kHz. Depending on the choice of tweeter, the result may be slightly better.
1700269453564.png

How good or bad such a speaker will sound depends on the crossover tuning. The fact that the fundamental range up to 1kHz shows a very even dipole radiation means that the conditions are not bad. The radiation above 1.5kHz is the compromise that is made with this concept.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Thanks @ctrl! Really useful to show again that you cannot just slap speakers on a board and get desirable results.

As far as I can tell NRD peddles much the same snake oil as Danny and is potentially more dangerous as his reach is greater. Despite the Shaw speaker being better designed, it is a big speaker and would not fit well in my listening space.

Maybe when I get my my vineyard and my wife is too busy enjoying wine to throw them in the fire pit!;)
 
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MacClintock

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Wow, if they are really playing down to 20+ Hz, this were amazing, no sub needed (the specs say 32Hz–20kHz +/- 2dB, by the way), additionally I am a great fan of Terje Isungset. And the price looks quite reasonable as well. If only Amir could measure them... AFAIK, he hasn't measured any open baffle speaker up to now, would be interesting.
 
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pollock0424

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I tried spatial audio M2 once and it was horrible.. had that horn bump and it just kept honking and shouting at me. Enter my miniDSP SHD and the thing was straightened up..there was a 4db bump in midrange.
 

Rick Sykora

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ThatSoundsGood

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Agree, one can't make such a transition perfectly with a speaker like the CALADAN (CAL).
The wide baffle helps to narrow the wide dispersion of the tweeter. The baffle therefore acts like a "large, but very flat, waveguide".

I made a quick simulation with a baffle identical in width to the CAL. Instead of 12'' the woofer the simulation uses a 10''woofer and a 1'' dome tweeter. I had no motivation to adapt the simulation completely to the CAL.
The example is also only intended to show the basic problems that can occur. To save computing time, the simulation was only carried out up to 5kHz and is therefore only reliable up to this frequency range, so please ignore everything above 5kHz.
View attachment 327014 View attachment 327012

With the (active) simulated FR for the woofer and tweeter, a fourth-order Linkwitz-Riley filter at 1kHz was then applied in VCAD.
I lowered the on-axis frequency response slightly in the 1.5-5kHz range to compensate for the wider radiation of the tweeter. Otherwise the tweeter would sound too aggressive in our example.
View attachment 327022 View attachment 327023
In the CTA-2034 diagram you can see very clearly in the sound power directivity index (SPDI) that above 1.5kHz the tweeter's radiation clearly widens.
In the crossover frequency range around 1kHz, vertical cancellation of the sound radiation results in a discontinuity that is noticeable as a whole in the SPDI.

The horizontal FR 0-90 deg shows the expected widening. And the normalized full sonogram shows unusual radiation.
View attachment 327026 View attachment 327027

In our example, the horizontal "radiation angle" (-6dB) would widen from 110° around 700Hz to 180° around 3-5kHz. Depending on the choice of tweeter, the result may be slightly better.
View attachment 327028

How good or bad such a speaker will sound depends on the crossover tuning. The fact that the fundamental range up to 1kHz shows a very even dipole radiation means that the conditions are not bad. The radiation above 1.5kHz is the compromise that is made with this concept.
Well done with this. It shows some of the problems I anticipated. I see from your explanation that the 10" woofer could do alright up to 1K, but a 12" is going to be worse. Also, I don't really see any 1" or 1.25" dome tweeter getting down to 1KHz even with a 4th order filter. There will be excursion and distortion problems. So the hole between 800Hz-2KHz is going to be even stranger than your modeling. But again, maybe there is something I don't know here.
 
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