New Nagra DAC announced at CES - list price $65,000

[garbulky]

Trust me. Lots of people with more money than brains invite people home just to give them a tour of their extravagant interior. When they come to the Nagra setup, the price tag will be pointed out as the most important feature.

You’ve experienced this? Because Everybody I know is blissfully ignorant of high-end audio and their prices. It seems to me last thing one would use to boast of wealth. Most people I know with high priced audio looks mildly embarrassed when the price is bought up

 

[amirm]

You’ve experienced this?

I have with a at least two people.

 

[RayDunzl]

I have with a at least two people.

I think I can guess one, can't decide among a possible few on the other.

 

[garbulky]

I have with a at least two people.

Yeah but that was with you right? Not with like the majority non audiophile population? I've never seen somebody bragging to a person that doesn't know audio - this amp cost me 20 grand.

 

[Olli]

The M2s play louder. The revel has lower distortion. They are designed for different markets. I don't know how they do in blind tests against each other. One that was done on another forum showed the Salon 2 to do slightly better than M2. When M2 plays loud though, the Salon 2 can't compete. Indeed most horns when used to their advantage, can have dynamics beyond what I can do with my Salon 2s and 1000 watts of power....

I am really tempted to try them, if they weren't so huge. They are avaliable for about 10 K EUR in Europe 2nd hand, so I could easily swap them with my TADs CE-1s. Just found some non DSP'ed measurements from https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/tad-labs-ce-1-loudspeaker-review/, which don't look bad either - so question is if this worth the hassle:

 

[filo97s]

wait what? Is this another brand that again uses no feedback?

 

[SIY]

wait what? Is this another brand that again uses no feedback?

Generally, that claim is made either fraudulently or by people who have no idea about feedback and are honestly in error. The former more often for commercial promotion, the latter more often by chimp reviewers and internet forum cowboys. Personally, I have not seen very much equipment that uses no feedback, claims notwithstanding.

 

[filo97s]

Generally, that claim is made either fraudulently or by people who have no idea about feedback and are honestly in error. The former more often for commercial promotion, the latter more often by chimp reviewers and internet forum cowboys. Personally, I have not seen very much equipment that uses no feedback, claims notwithstanding.

however some products that companies advertise as having no feedback, turned out to be broken designs like the ayre codex. A brand that make such a claim in their website should be avoided, in my opinion.

 

[SIY]

however some products that companies advertise as having no feedback, turned out to be broken designs like the ayre codex. A brand that make such a claim in their website should be avoided, in my opinion.

I will bet two weeks pay that examination of that schematic will show the presence of feedback. There may be other design issues at play (like doing the feedback improperly), but it is certainly there.

 

[filo97s]

I will bet two weeks pay that examination of that schematic will show the presence of feedback. There may be other design issues at play (like doing the feedback improperly), but it is certainly there.

interesting point of view, thanks
why do you think that even when it's advertised that there's no feedback, it must be there anyway?

 

[SIY]

why do you think that even when it's advertised that there's no feedback, it must be there anyway?

Because I understand a reasonable amount about how electronics work, and I've seen an unreasonable amount of equipment which is claimed to have zero feedback but actually has it. When you call out the manufacturers on that last point, the No True Scotsman fallacies and similar rationalizations flow like the Mississippi in rainy season.

 

[FrantzM]

Because I understand a reasonable amount about how electronics work, and I've seen an unreasonable amount of equipment which is claimed to have zero feedback but actually has it. When you call out the manufacturers on that last point, the No True Scotsman fallacies and similar rationalizations flow like the Mississippi in rainy season.

I like the post. Care to illustrate?

 

[SIY]

I like the post. Care to illustrate?

Give me a schematic to something claimed to have zero feedback and I'll draw some circles in appropriate spots.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I like the post. Care to illustrate?

I don't have SIY's breadth of no feedback experience. And not trying to take the wind out of his no feedback shtick.

One way is that most people not knowing electronics think feedback is always a wire from the output being fed back into the input. If you lack that connection then voila there is no feedback. There are other areas and ways to do feedback. And it is difficult to impossible to make a reasonable circuit that has any useful performance without it. So you have global loop feedback, local loop feedback that may only occur in the middle of circuits, you have degenerative feedback in the very way some active devices get connected etc. etc. That is without getting into people who try and make the claim while sneaking in a little feedback they hope not to get called on.

Op-amps work with huge amounts of feedback. And work well. I could dig up Bruno Putzey's article saying not using sufficient feedback is the problem. The more the better.

Here is a nice little article on feedback types.

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/systems/feedback-systems.html

 

[Blumlein 88]

Here is an Ayre V3. They don't claim no feedback actually. They do say no loop feedback.

 

[SIY]

Here is an Ayre V3. They don't claim no feedback actually. They do say no loop feedback.

"No True Scotsman."

 

[dkinric]

New DAC shown at Munich - the Wadax Atlantis Refrence DAC. This thing's a beast. Can't find a MSRP, but the DAC below this in their lineup is $69,000, so this one is likely closer to $100k.

http://www.wadax.eu/reference/
"...contains 23 printed circuit boards, 10 independent, purpose-wound power transformers and over 5,500 discrete parts…"

 

[SIY]

/
"...contains 23 printed circuit boards, 10 independent, purpose-wound power transformers and over 5,500 discrete parts…"

Fetish object.

I'm unfamiliar with transformers that are not purpose-wound. I mean, do people just wind them randomly and hope that they end up having some use?

 

[Paperdragons]

I have never been comfortable with expensive Hi-Fi being to display wealth, who sees it?
Fancy car, yes, gold Rolex certainly, expensive Hi-Fi ?????

To be fair most people roll their eyes at 3 million dollar cars and rolex at this point when things like apple watch empiracly destroy them in terms of features and function at 400$ Max...unless it’s a high performance diver watch or something niche that doesn’t need repairs every two years to keep ticking.

 

[Frank Dernie]

To be fair most people roll their eyes at 3 million dollar cars and rolex at this point when things like apple watch empiracly destroy them in terms of features and function at 400$ Max...unless it’s a high performance diver watch or something niche that doesn’t need repairs every two years to keep ticking.

Maybe but I just was just writing about status symbols. Cars, Rolex (most people only know Rolex as expensive!) maybe expensive designer stuff with the label prominently written on the outside (which is the stupidest, I charge companies to advertise their wares, not do it for free) are visible status symbols. HiFi is not, since it isn't visible and you don't parade around the place driving or wearing it.
HiFi as a status symbol is ridiculous. A big dick competition between like minded weirdos maybe, but status symbol, definitely not.