Neumann KH 80 DSP + KH 750 DSP + MA 1 vs Genelec 8030C + 7050 + DIRAC

[George Tsitsias]

Hello everyone I would like your input between these 2 speaker systems:

1. Neumann KH 80 DSP + KH 750 DSP + MA 1 2799 euros
2. Genelec 8030C + 7050 + DIRAC 2922 euros

Do you think there is a clear winner?

 

[Ilkless]

MA1 only just got out of some teething issues, while Dirac is a mature product that you can continue to use even when you switch out the 8030 for something else. I vote option 2 for that reason. Both are likely evenly matched for bass SPL and extension. The 8030 has a larger midwoofer that may have a bit more midbass capacity above the sub crossover, but the 7050 is the smaller sub. Yet the 7050 is ported compared to the 750's sealed.

 

[George Tsitsias]

MA1 only just got out of some teething issues, while Dirac is a mature product that you can continue to use even when you switch out the 8030 for something else. I vote option 2 for that reason. Both are likely evenly matched for bass SPL and extension. The 8030 has a larger midwoofer that may have a bit more midbass capacity above the sub crossover, but the 7050 is the smaller sub. Yet the 7050 is ported compared to the 750's sealed.

Thank you for the response! I am torn between, I suppose that the MA-1 would be hassle free as a setup. Also, I intend to keep these speakers for a long time so I don't know if I could use DIRAC if and when I change speakers (there will probably be a vesion 5 or 6 by then).

 

[Ilkless]

Thank you for the response! I am torn between, I suppose that the MA-1 would be hassle free as a setup. Also, I intend to keep these speakers for a long time so I don't know if I could use DIRAC if and when I change speakers (there will probably be a vesion 5 or 6 by then).

Well I trust a dedicated room correction software development firm for long-term support more than a speaker company, nonetheless.

 

[mj30250]

MA 1 is designed to be virtually plug-and-play and extremely easy to use (simply follow the prompts for microphone placement). I feel that this is generally true, if you manage to have a bug / glitch-free experience. I (and several others) did not. However, putting those frustrations aside, the process is ultimately simple, relatively fast, and offers very impressive results. Once you've completed and saved an alignment, you can set up your own curves and instantly swap back and forth to hear the differences between calibrated / uncalibrated.

You can achieve the same (if not potentially slightly better) results with Dirac, but the learning curve and time commitment will be higher.

 

[Joachim Herbert]

K&H has been in the (studio) business for more than 50 years now. They did amps, equalizers and speakers that were and are heavily used in public broadcasting which requires highest standards.

So Neumann (which is K&H people and design) is not just a "speaker company".

 

[Joachim Herbert]

If you go Genelec go for a speaker that supports GLM like 8320 or 8330. Works like a charm.

But keep in mind they are just a speaker company, too.

 

[Ilkless]

That's precisely my point. No need for OP to lock himself into a proprietary room correction system it he can help it, be it GLM or MA1. Especially given the well documented teething issues with MA1. Neumann has diversifed hardware expertise, but room correction software development and long term support is far from its specialisation. A ton more futureproof and flexible to have room correction outboard of the speakers via Dirac, as OP can switch to another brand and retain the correction filter.

The 8030 and 8050 (but not the 8040) perform well enough to not need DSP to linearise driver response and crossover.

 

[thecheapseats]

...K&H has been in the (studio) business for more than 50 years now....

even better... this year is their 78th year... bought my first pair of mid-fields over forty years ago...on my fourth pair now...
I use genelecs for near fields...
both fine companies...

 

[thecheapseats]

Hello everyone I would like your input between these 2 speaker systems:

1. Neumann KH 80 DSP + KH 750 DSP + MA 1 2799 euros
2. Genelec 8030C + 7050 + DIRAC 2922 euros

Do you think there is a clear winner?

what is your intended use for them? - production or pleasure listening?... is your listening space treated (currently)?...

 

[George Tsitsias]

I will use them for mixing and mastering. The studio is treated with absorption and bass traps (no diffusion as it wouldn't work at my space).

In terms of DIRAC vs MA-1 I get all of your points. I will use these speakers with Reaper which I think is another plus for DIRAC as it is only a VST plugin? But again I like the simplicity of MA-1 (which I know it has some hiccups).

The way I see it is that these speakers will be in my studio for a long time so I will get stuck with either MA-1 or DIRAC. My question was about the whole chain of the speaker system, speakers + sub + correction software. Does anyone have used both of them (the whole chain)?

 

[Joachim Herbert]

The 8030 and 8050 (but not the 8040) perform well enough to not need DSP to linearise driver response and crossover.

I started that room correction stuff with a Lyngdorf tdai 2200 with roomperfect and Canton standmounts, before replacing that setup von a pair of Adam S3V. Room correction for these was done via REW generating filters for roon dsp. From a workflow perspective this is like using any speaker and a system like dirac or sonarworks (which I also used).

Main reason for switching to a pair of Genelec 8361 two years ago was the ease of use and the high quality of GLM. Never looked back. It just works, no hazzle. Setting up a Neumann system (I run KH750/KH120 on my desktop) is much more complicated, though not necessary for high quality output in my desktop environment.

I understand that the latest Adam speakers support sonarworks natively, so this might be a worthwhile (low priced) consideration.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I compared Dirac Live Bass Control with Neumann MA 1 (with measurements) - maybe this helps.

Neumann MA1 vs. Dirac Live Bass Control (DLBC) - Dual KH750 subs

Hello, i have a dual sub Neumann system (2x KH310, 2x KH750 DSP). I use the MA1 microphone and software for room EQ. I also own a Dirac Live license (PC standalone) that i have not used for a long time. Because Dirac released DLBC, i decided to get the trial version and compare the results of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[George Tsitsias]

I compared Dirac Live Bass Control with Neumann MA 1 (with measurements) - maybe this helps.

Neumann MA1 vs. Dirac Live Bass Control (DLBC) - Dual KH750 subs

Hello, i have a dual sub Neumann system (2x KH310, 2x KH750 DSP). I use the MA1 microphone and software for room EQ. I also own a Dirac Live license (PC standalone) that i have not used for a long time. Because Dirac released DLBC, i decided to get the trial version and compare the results of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yes I've read that and it was one of the reasons that I started to think about the MA-1. I had the same opinion as Ilkless, that DIRAC would be better because it's from a company that specializes in room correction. But there is the other train of thought, the MA-1 "knows" exactly the design of Neumann's speakers and can do a better job.

Question: Do you know if you can tell MA-1 to work in a specific frequency range? I have read a lot of people don't like their room correction software to "correct" frequencies above 700-1000 Hz. DIRAC has this option.

 

[thecheapseats]

I will use them for mixing and mastering. The studio is treated with absorption and bass traps (no diffusion as it wouldn't work at my space).

ok, production - this I know... I never comment on pleasure listening as I'm clueless /don't care... I'm up here shopping for quality value-gear for my retiring younger brother and my son that doesn't have nutty money to spend...

these speakers (as a class) are precision tools - nothing more... a mastering engineer recommended k+h mid-fields to me decades ago (told me to, "stop using bad speakers") after I commented on them during a mastering session he was doing for me... he had a pair (among other mfg's) in his mastering room... I ordered a pair the next day - but that's me... so I'll ask you -> have you listened to them both?...ever?... used either brand before?...

both are fine companies with great spkrs - I use both... hard to make a mistake and it's almost a personal preference... your decisions seem to be based upon their room eq tools... as your room is designed for listening and is treated - my opinion is either eq-sys would likely do the job... but ummm - you're buying a pair of speakers... the MA-1 has been around for a while - the newer MT-48 box looks trick... will that work 'later on' with kh80(s)?... rhetorical question, sorta'...

real quickly - a disclaimer - I don't use either mfg's eq-sys tools... if that disqualifies my opinion - you're welcome to stop reading now... both my first room in L.A. and the studio relocated to where I am now were purpose built studio/control rooms designed from concrete and studs up for recording... control room was built identically to my former location... had it rung-out by a pro I flew in from L.A. - didn't change a thing in the control room... moved a few clouds in the studio...

other than one minor built-in eq setting on the Genelec near-fields - both the Neumanns and the Genelecs run negligibly flat... I was told long ago to get the room built right first... best advice I ever had...

(1) I have no experience with any k+h/Neumann near-fields, only their mid-fields... the opposite is true with Genelecs...

(2) subs and getting the low-end right has always been tricky and most of it is the room itself... tools today are amazing and helpful when you need to null a room - but low end mistakes can bite hard... take the first few projects to rooms you know for a listen - to confirm the software isn't unintentionally deceptive (lying to you)...

side note-> a custom sub-solution designed and built for me has worked for almost thirty years, thru three mid-field swaps-outs - and a move to a new location (with a few minor tweaks)... also, it has tracked well - i.e., stuff doesn't leave here with low-end goofs/mistakes... therefore I don't get yelled at on the phone or lose work...

(3) (as stated above), on my fourth pair of k+h/Neumanns - third pair of Genelecs, - and I switch between them (upstairs/downstairs) while working to check things... they are different (and that contrast helps me quite a lot) - both great products - but you need to listen to them as the are different...

(4) I have (and still do) swap near-field pairs depending on what I'm doing - typically between the genelecs - a coax pair - and an older task-specific fav pair (mfg names omitted - as that's unimportant)...

(5) when I moved to self-powered monitors over four decades ago they were certainly NOT a standard 'thing' in la-la-land... at all at all... more than a few engineers said wtf? walking into the control room and seeing them for the first time... thankfully k+h had the chops to get them right and keep making them better... when I first signed up to ASR , I was surprised to see Neumann and Genelec had migrated to non-pro use... all good...

(6) my son - in his mid-twenties now and on his own - was audio-spoiled growing up aroung this stuff and wants a pair of Neumann 120 II(s) - but hates the prices...

good luck choosing... flip a coin... then make some music...

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Question: Do you know if you can tell MA-1 to work in a specific frequency range? I have read a lot of people don't like their room correction software to "correct" frequencies above 700-1000 Hz. DIRAC has this opoption.

Not possible. You can only adjust the target curve. I never felt the need restricting it, though (other than with older versions if Dirac).

 

[George Tsitsias]

have you listened to them both?...ever?... used either brand before?...

I have used Genelecs 8020D with 7050 and Genelecs 1037 in the same studio ( I liked the 1037 better) and in another studio K+H 310 (before Neumann).
I liked the 310 better but it was in a different space. I have worked with focal SM6 and B&W 801 (supposed they were Abbey Roads old speakers that had their crossovers modified).

The sound that has amazed me was from K+H 310 and the B&Ws, but I don't have that budget. My budget is 2500-3000 euros. I might stretch it to 3600 if KH120 II ever become available.

I do like that Genelecs have a wider dispersion....

 

[George Tsitsias]

Not possible. You can only adjust the target curve. I never felt the need restricting it, though (other than with older versions if Dirac).

In the new version of DIRAC (when you compared it with MA-1), did you restrict the frequency range?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

In the new version of DIRAC (when you compared it with MA-1), did you restrict the frequency range?

No, not for the comparison.

 

[audafreak]

If you use non-dsp monitors, then defining range has sense, of course.
But I think that it has no sense to restrict correction range for DSP Neumanns because they are completely DSP corrected from factory even in default setting, you cannot avoid it. MA1 only changes parameters for this correction.