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My first day as an Audacity Cowboy

wgscott

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One fine day, early on in my attempts to acquire and appreciate high-resolution downloads, a senior colleague, who listens mostly to jazz that he acquired on vinyl many years ago, came for a visit. Since I don't know anything about jazz, he suggested a few titles, and a subset of them were available from HDtracks.com, so I purchased and downloaded them for his visit. He would never call himself an audiophile, but I wanted to impress him with what computer audio could do, relative to mp3 or CD playback. He is a scientist (and member of the National Academy) and a very talented amateur musician as well.

The first title I played for him was one called "Lush Life" by John Coltrane. Since I know nothing about jazz, I guessed from the title that it must be some sort of ballad about being an alcoholic. But it actually sounded pretty good to my ears, and I didn't even feel a need to run out an purchase a white polyester leisure suit.

So after it was done, I asked him what he thought. He was very polite, but eventually said he thought it wasn't as good as the CD, and inferior to the initial pressing. I then told him it wasn't an mp3, and that it was, in fact, "high resolution." I explained to him what that meant, and got the predictable response, but in addition, he suggested I do a Fourier transform on it to see what was going on. (We both do X-ray crystallography, so this isn't an unnatural suggestion.) I found some GPL software called Audacity on line and downloaded and installed it, and proceeded to show him what the file looked like. To my surprise, here is what it looked like:

LushLife.png


The larger image shows the Fourier of the left and right channel to 48kHz, which is the upper limit imposed by Nyquist for 96kHz sampling in the case of this high resolution file. Both this and the accompanying inset (which you can think of as a cross-section of one of the channels) show that there is very little information beyond about 22 kHz, which is the frequency limit imposed on CDs and mp3s. In other words, there was no significant high resolution information present in the file.

One could object that this is irrelevant, simply because even a child's hearing won't go above 20kHz, but that is only part of the story. The reason you might want to have higher-frequency information present is to avoid having a brick-wall cutoff imposed at ~22kHz, which can produce audible aliasing artifacts and Fourier truncation artifacts, among other problems. Besides, I paid a premium for those files, above and beyond the cost of a CD, to have that higher-frequency data present, even if only my dog can appreciate it.

I complained to the vendor, as did apparently a number of others, and they pulled the title and offered me another download for free, so at least they tried to make it right after the fact. I very much appreciate that.

The problem is that this kind of thing happens fairly frequently, and is not limited to any single vendor. I've even encountered it on some of Neil Young's stuff. (I presume a vocal advocate of high res music wouldn't knowingly do that.)

Here's a few other highlights I have found (to pick from about 30 examples I have personally experienced). This is common enough that I hesitate to purchase high–res music now, without seeing the data.

Screen shot 2011-09-03 at 7.08.10 AM.png



Screen shot 2011-07-08 at 11.07.15 PM.png

That last one is particularly weird.
 

amirm

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Thanks for the story. It is how you and I met on another forum. I bought another album you were having problems with and found the same issue.

This is actually one of my very large projects I am about to embark on. I now have hundreds of high-resolution downloads I have purchased. I have analyzed a handful of them and what is there is not pretty. There are a number of issues with them independent of the CD brick wall (which HDTracks for example checks for these days).

These will be in the form of videos as static displays like you are using can hide some issues that show in dynamic/real-time playback.

Not having done any videos of this kind before, it has taken me a while to get the set up but I hope to launch it here soon.
 
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wgscott

wgscott

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That sounds like a great project. Please keep us posted ...
 

March Audio

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This is my experience too, many files I bought from HDtracks are limited to 20kHz, have clipped samples etc. This sounds like it could be a useful resource for people generally - just post a grab of any (allegedly) HD music you buy from Audacity or Audition, plus amplitude stats. It can only help people make informed purchasing decisions.

Are videos going to be too time consuming for others to generate? Amir, what ort of issues are you highlighting in the videos?

Shall I make a start? Should we start a new thread?

This is one of the good ones


css.JPG


Danse Macabre

test grab.JPG
 
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amirm

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I could definitely use the help :). So yes, let's create a new thread. I will try to get one of the videos created so that you see what I am trying to highlight there that is harder to do with static images. One of the things I also like to do is a bit of a tutorial as I don't think most people know how to read the spectrograms.
 

amirm

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Cross reference is fine. I have read a lot of those. What I am looking for that is different is having a focused library of such recordings that is organized with samples, where to buy the music, etc. What they have now is a general discussion forum which is fine but is different than a reference that I envision us having.
 

Bruce B

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Just my suggestion.

1. Use FFT, not spectrograms. With FFT, you have more power for windowing and such

2. Zoom in on 10k - 30k. Everything below and above is unneeded. This way, you can see if you are actually looking at a brickwall filter at 22.05k or just the signal rolling off rapidly.

3. Use the same filtering and parameters for all files.

4. Scan the whole track! Not just 5-10 seconds!

5. Do not stop at -90dB... go all the way down to -150dB if you can.
 
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TBone

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I now have hundreds of high-resolution downloads I have purchased. I have analyzed a handful of them and what is there is not pretty. There are a number of issues with them independent of the CD brick wall (which HDTracks for example checks for these days).

From what I've gathered, so far, the vast majority of HD Track downloads (my fav. 60/70/80 type music) are akin to the remasters, which are often compressed in direct comparison to the original.
 

TBone

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Yes, classic titles, most R&R with Folk/Jazz roots (is Dylan considered R&R?) ... i will try post some titles/comparative numbers soon, if time permits ...
 

Blumlein 88

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That is pretty common when I see others post DR values. It may be hirez of sorts without brickwall filtering, but it has been remastered now featuring much more compression than the original. In the opinion of many, the old less compressed CD is more satisfying overall in such cases. I certainly have the opinion any benefit of sample rates being higher and bit depths greater is completely wiped out by more compression. Some egregious examples might as well have been 192khz/8 bit. It would have made no difference.
 

Jinjuku

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I've avoided the bulk of Hi-res tracks due to this issue. I don't have the energy to research every single purchase. Especially older title's that were most likely 99% of the time mastered for RedBook audio.

+1 for audacity. I use it for cleaning up all my voice over tracks for training videos.
 

amirm

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So here is the question: I plan to do a separate video on each high-res album. That is considerably more work than a simple text article. The benefit of the video is that it shows dynamic behavior that static text/pictures can't. Should I continue to plan to do this in video or take the shortcut of writing articles?
 

Jinjuku

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So here is the question: I plan to do a separate video on each high-res album. That is considerably more work than a simple text article. The benefit of the video is that it shows dynamic behavior that static text/pictures can't. Should I continue to plan to do this in video or take the shortcut of writing articles?

I think an anchor video going through one good example and then follow text/pic articles would be fine.
 

TBone

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(just one example, so many more exist ...)

In fairness to HD Tracks, and a positive example for our hi-rez crowd ...

Prince - Prince:
DR# HD Tracks (*)24.192 2013 / LP WB 56 772 1979/ CD 3366-2 1990 & SHM-CD WPCR-13531 2012
DR16/16/10 I Wanna Be Your Lover
DR13/13 /12 Why You Wanna Treat Me So Bad?
DR17 /17 /10 Sexy Dancer
DR17 /18 /14 When We're Dancing Close and Slow
DR16 /18 /14 With You
DR14 /14 /10 Bambi
DR15 /14 /11 Still Waiting
DR16 /16 /10 I Feel for You
DR15 /14 /9 It's Gonna Be Lonely

Released: 1979, LP, cassette & 8-Track originally, last cassette remaster 1985, LPs reissued 1980 to 1986, CD orig. 1986, reissued to current day.

Not heard the HD Tracks version yet, so I don't know if they applied eq to the mix like I've heard with some; but simply judging the available DR stats ... it appears the CD versions have identical masters, w/similar compression. (To be fair to these CDs, I've seen much worse numbers, in every format, but it's obvious some tracks are heavily compressed.) I don't have any remastered LPs stats to provide, but given such history, LP remasters are most as likely compressed.

So, in this case, if I made a needle-drop of the orig LP, it would better the orig/remastered CDs and most likely LP remasters. But those HD Tracks specs indicate similar origins, and just a download away ... without the hassles of owning/setting/playing w/turntables.

BTW, seen Prince twice; one opening night 3+ hr concert, he started by paying tribute to James Brown ... dancing like the man was alive, for the first 20 minutes, no singing or guitar playing. Amazing ...

---

(*) would be interested to see if the HD Track 16/44 specs are identical. And for that matter, it may be of interest the orig cassette and even 8-track numbers (for sh!ts&giggles) for comparison (I may actually know someone who could provide those).
 

RayDunzl

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Hi-res, high-frequencies, complaints, microphones...

Here's a ubiquitous example:

frequencyresponse.gif


SM57 Instrument Microphone
An industry standard for performance and recording, the versatile and rugged SM57 is an exceptional instrument microphone and vocal microphone.

  • Handheld or mountable microphone for guitars, vocals, and other instruments in live sound and recording applications
  • Dynamic cartridge with cardioid polar pattern

Do your "hi-res" recordings include a listing of the microphones used? Did they even capture HF content? New ones, maybe. Old transfers, maybe not.

Certainly there are units that go high, but I'll just tickle the topic here.
 
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