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Morrow SP3 Review (Speaker Cable)
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
That’s why Amir does not only test at 1kHz..
I needed some time to repeat the measurements that were not archived. The only method that tells us something about the cabble effect (and possible audible effect) is to compare signals behind the cable (at speaker input terminals) with the signal at the cable input (amplifier output terminals). Make a ratio and see effect of the cable to the frequency response, the change made by cable itself. It of course depends on speaker impedance plot. I measured with my 6m 2x4mm2 zip cord like speaker cable and my CNO-T25 2way speaker, which makes quite a light load which does not fall below 6ohm. Even then we can see cable effect, with FR deviation up to 0.15dB. Definitely better information than -130dB SINAD.
So the test should have concentrated to cable parameters like R, L and C per unit length. This would tell about possible interaction with speaker impedance. I am sorry, but to measure the speaker cable with a system with 40 ohm output impedance and 200 kohm input impedance for FR and distortion is a plain nonsense. Some fun and nothing more.
OP
I think some more high-end speaker cables ought to be reviewed. I want to see a review of a cable that intentionally introduces inductance, capacitance or even an R-C, R-L or combination filter. There are these speaker "cables" that have these podular swollen sections, like some kind of awful tumors- or the kind with cast-epoxy bricks. These things likely have some kind of filter in there, and, sure - those ARE likely to sound different. I'd like to see the FR plots of that kind of "cable" and other tests like S/N might show differences over Amirm's AWG 16 cobbles - er, I mean CABLES. I'd also like to see some tests of some odd "cable topologies" like the long flat ribbon kind, I think conductors of this configuration will introduce some L or C compared to a regular wire, which will alter the frequency response.
And, as far as the idea that because stranded wire has the various strands touching in multiple places which could alter the path that currents flow through the wire- there's evidence of significant ignorance of physics in this notion, I'd like to point out a few of my favorites.
1. Audio is alternating current electricity. In A.C., there is no net flow of electrons through the wire. So how could "the sounds" be out of phase from travelling along slightly different paths in a stranded wire? NOTHING is travelling through the wire, but a signal is PROPAGATING along the wire. The electric and magnetic fields will maintain coherence regardless of the touching of strands. The AC signal doesn't somehow "break apart" with different parts flowing along different strands. (If you think it does, then please send me some of whatever you are smoking. It must be righteous stuff, irie!)
2. A.C. will propagate along a conductor at roughly 90% of the speed of light. Changing the "path" of some part of the signal (if such a ridiculous thing could happen!) would have to amount to a rather high value to somehow audibly shift the phase of components of the AC signal. The AC signal will propagate along a 3 meter cable in 6.00 × 10^ (-6) secs. So, let's say that the worst-case "delay" along the wire is 10 times the normal propagation time due to the signal following some circuitous path along thousands of the small strands. So that would mean a delay of ~5.4 × 10^ (-5) secs. That corresponds to a phase shift of less than 1° at 5 kHz, and correspondingly less at lower frequencies. From all the research I've been able to find, this is far, far below the human ear's sensitivity to phase shifts. Well, this "phase shift from stranded wire" doesn't happen, and even if it did happen the way Morrow claimed it happens, you wouldn't be able to hear it.
And skin effect? Skin effect in solid conductor wires at 20 kHz doesn't become a significant factor in signal propagation until the "wire" is about 1 cm diameter. And for stranded wire, skin effect is negligible up to several megahertz, but of course other issues like radiation loss, standing wave problems and so on cause more significant issues in an ordinary wire than skin effect above a few hundred kHz. Skin effect is important in radio frequency transmission lines, but not in speaker cables.
And, as far as the idea that because stranded wire has the various strands touching in multiple places which could alter the path that currents flow through the wire- there's evidence of significant ignorance of physics in this notion, I'd like to point out a few of my favorites.
1. Audio is alternating current electricity. In A.C., there is no net flow of electrons through the wire. So how could "the sounds" be out of phase from travelling along slightly different paths in a stranded wire? NOTHING is travelling through the wire, but a signal is PROPAGATING along the wire. The electric and magnetic fields will maintain coherence regardless of the touching of strands. The AC signal doesn't somehow "break apart" with different parts flowing along different strands. (If you think it does, then please send me some of whatever you are smoking. It must be righteous stuff, irie!)
2. A.C. will propagate along a conductor at roughly 90% of the speed of light. Changing the "path" of some part of the signal (if such a ridiculous thing could happen!) would have to amount to a rather high value to somehow audibly shift the phase of components of the AC signal. The AC signal will propagate along a 3 meter cable in 6.00 × 10^ (-6) secs. So, let's say that the worst-case "delay" along the wire is 10 times the normal propagation time due to the signal following some circuitous path along thousands of the small strands. So that would mean a delay of ~5.4 × 10^ (-5) secs. That corresponds to a phase shift of less than 1° at 5 kHz, and correspondingly less at lower frequencies. From all the research I've been able to find, this is far, far below the human ear's sensitivity to phase shifts. Well, this "phase shift from stranded wire" doesn't happen, and even if it did happen the way Morrow claimed it happens, you wouldn't be able to hear it.
And skin effect? Skin effect in solid conductor wires at 20 kHz doesn't become a significant factor in signal propagation until the "wire" is about 1 cm diameter. And for stranded wire, skin effect is negligible up to several megahertz, but of course other issues like radiation loss, standing wave problems and so on cause more significant issues in an ordinary wire than skin effect above a few hundred kHz. Skin effect is important in radio frequency transmission lines, but not in speaker cables.
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Few months back, I took a few captures in the acoustic domain of two quite different speakers cables.
- DIY Canare 4S11, 2X2mm2 (11AWG), twisted at both ends, with Viborg "Pure copper" gold plated bananas
Vs:
- Triangle Symphonie SYS30A, 2.5mm2 (≈13AWG) "OFCHC" copper, assembled with Triangle silver plated bananas. It retailed for 189€/pair but is often discounted. The manufacturer claims this is supposed to be some perfect synergy paired with Triangle speakers (how convenient...)
Both cables are 3M long.
This was my main system before I moved to the active world: RME ADI-2 DAC V2 (no EQ) + Denon PMA-A110 + Dynaudio Evoke 20 on stands. I'm not sure if this ≈6.6K€ system is "reveling enough" for audiophile's standards, for it is certainly good enough to detect any differences between two 100-200€ speaker wires...
This REW frequency response is taken In-room, On-Axis (tweeter level), 1M, 1/24 smoothing. Three captures of each, 5 minutes apart, then averaged. Same mic position, same level, the only difference is the cables plugged in.
Both FR separated:
- DIY Canare 4S11, 2X2mm2 (11AWG), twisted at both ends, with Viborg "Pure copper" gold plated bananas
Vs:
- Triangle Symphonie SYS30A, 2.5mm2 (≈13AWG) "OFCHC" copper, assembled with Triangle silver plated bananas. It retailed for 189€/pair but is often discounted. The manufacturer claims this is supposed to be some perfect synergy paired with Triangle speakers (how convenient...)
Both cables are 3M long.
This was my main system before I moved to the active world: RME ADI-2 DAC V2 (no EQ) + Denon PMA-A110 + Dynaudio Evoke 20 on stands. I'm not sure if this ≈6.6K€ system is "reveling enough" for audiophile's standards, for it is certainly good enough to detect any differences between two 100-200€ speaker wires...
This REW frequency response is taken In-room, On-Axis (tweeter level), 1M, 1/24 smoothing. Three captures of each, 5 minutes apart, then averaged. Same mic position, same level, the only difference is the cables plugged in.
Both FR separated:
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That's not what you said. But whatever.
Maybe next: boutique power cords? Unlikely to make any difference once gauge, quality of manufacturing, insulation are appropriate to the task.
The problem is that your measurement on acoustical side has very low resolution and is messed with reflections. We speak about differences in 0.1dB - 1dB when talking about cables and specific speakers. Another problem is that the theme is permanently disregarded by founder/admin, so we can read a lot of anecdotal stories without any value.
It's messed with in-room reflections with both cables. I would have 99% the same results in anechoic conditions, with the only difference being 1dB at 420Hz, repeatable with each cable.
Aren't these cables supposed to sound different under domestic, not anechoic use?
You mean just about any power cord out there?
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Leaving aside the audiophile-targeted wire products, I perceive two broad classes of speaker wire available for purchase:
Related, Revel's manuals for speakers in the Ultima2, PerformaBe, and Performa3 lines specify
They warn that
An associated table maps wire length to wire gauge. With routing, gauges in the 9-11 range may be required for rear room placements:
The Concerta2 product manuals are silent on this topic. Presumably their filter networks are more resistant to mis-termination?
Is this real?
- Copper clad aluminum (CCA) - less costly
- Oxygen free copper (OFC) - more costly
Related, Revel's manuals for speakers in the Ultima2, PerformaBe, and Performa3 lines specify
They warn that
An associated table maps wire length to wire gauge. With routing, gauges in the 9-11 range may be required for rear room placements:
The Concerta2 product manuals are silent on this topic. Presumably their filter networks are more resistant to mis-termination?
Is this real?
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Just this one: $ 6,000 for 1 m...It's messed with in-room reflections with both cables. I would have 99% the same results in anechoic conditions, with the only difference being 1dB at 420Hz, repeatable with each cable.
Aren't these cables supposed to sound different under domestic, not anechoic use?
You mean just about any power chord out there?
It's messed with in-room reflections with both cables. I would have 99% the same results in anechoic conditions, with the only difference being 1dB at 420Hz, repeatable with each cable.
Aren't these cables supposed to sound different under domestic, not anechoic use?
You mean just about any power chord out there?
Sure under domestic use, but your method is masking the differences and reveals nothing. The only way is the method that I have shown, to compare precisely and exactly electrical signal at the input and output of the cable loaded with the real speaker. Acoustical method is not precise enough and has low resolution. It has nothing to do with anechoic chamber, your remark makes no sense. As usual, anecdotal stories and lack of scientific approach.
As usual... Excuse me? Are you talking about someone in particular? If it has nothing to do with anechoic (on that we agree), why did you mentioned "messed up reflections" to begin with?
I give you that. Of course it does, since there's nothing to reveal whatsoever.
@Gene DellaSala did exactly this. And found no difference all the same...
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By way of clarification:
Power cord:
Power chord:
Power cord:
Power chord:
Rofl. I have a cheap set of "boutique" power cords. They don't do anything but provide power but they look good doing it.
Your testing seems inappropriate, @amirm. I'm sure you forgot to burn in for at least 400 hours, as the manufacturer recommends:
You will find great enjoyment and improvements right out of the box. Our cables however take around 400 hours to fully break in. You can speed this process up with our optional break-in service.
Also, if someone may enlighten me on this:
The SP3 speaker cables can handle up to 150 watts continuous/ 300 watts peak.
Wut?Perhaps this guy has an explanation...
Break in? hahaha
Katji
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zipcord is what they call twinflex. Like zip ties instead of cable ties.
CCA is a poor choice because of mechanical reasons- poor flexibility and creep/compression set.
Speedskater
Major Contributor
The cross-section area of the CCA will need to be larger to have the same resistance per unit length. (12awg CCA = 14awg OFC)
But if the end-to-end resistance of the two cables is about equal, then no audible differences.
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