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Well, what's the goal of audio? I think it's to as faithfully as possible reproduce what was intended by the artist when recorded. So anything done at the hardware level that changes that and can't be controlled by the listener is bad, IMO. Equipment should be transparent, in my opinion.
A well recorded song doesn't need the soundstage improved by electronics via coloration/distortion. Just like if I went to an art gallery and someone had tinted a Rothko to make it seem warmer, I would be pissed, whereas once you get a reproduction home, do whatever you want to it, with the understanding that the result is a derivative of the original and thus not the original.
Unless you're using the same monitor speakers the engineers used, you're already coloring the sound.
Plus your room being different.
And colored gear really can change the subjective impression of soundstage. This is psycho-acoustically supported. So it's not scientifically accurate to claim electronics can't affect soundstage.
To be clear, I'm not an advocate of non-flat amps. I think there are more sensible ways to EQ.
Psychoacoustically, in the mixing world, it's a known trick that you can manipulate the forward/back impression of a soundstage by adjusting a PEQ (Q 1.0, +/- ~2 dB range) at 1600 Hz.
Supposedly Nelson Pass intentionally colors some of his amp's response curve to manipulate the impression of soundstage.
Now, one might argue that this is an 'effects box' rather than an improvement....and I have no issue with that.
But a non-flat amp can manipulate the psychoacoustic impression of a soundstage.
Whether that's an improvement or not is a subjective matter.
This is very interesting. The first time I heard real soundstage depth in a system was at a friend's one evening. At the time he lived in a barn conversion and his system was upstairs in a spare room. The room was in the eaves of the barn, so had a pointed ceiling sloping down to ~1m from the floor. The listening axis was with the vertical walls at the sides and the angled ceiling fore/aft of the listening position. I had always attributed the amazing imaging to the front/back reflections being fired into the carpet/fabric sofa etc, but from the comment above is it more or less likely that the overall frequency response of the system was responsible? (hope all that makes sense)
This is very interesting. The first time I heard real soundstage depth in a system was at a friend's one evening. At the time he lived in a barn conversion and his system was upstairs in a spare room. The room was in the eaves of the barn, so had a pointed ceiling sloping down to ~1m from the floor. The listening axis was with the vertical walls at the sides and the angled ceiling fore/aft of the listening position. I had always attributed the amazing imaging to the front/back reflections being fired into the carpet/fabric sofa etc, but from the comment above is it more or less likely that the overall frequency response of the system was responsible? (hope all that makes sense)
Listen to the Quincy Jones productions of Michael Jackson, a million miles away from reality and selling like hotcakes. Just about any monster hit is the audio equivalent of junk food, highly processed and available everywhere.
I heard "Thriller" (the song) on the radio over the weekend and started thinking how hard it would be to reproduce in a live concert and have it sound anything like the album without being cheesy, or just a replay of the recording.
Vincent Price voice-overs and "spooky" sound effects, included.
If two power amp have low distortion, noise, flat frequency response and low output impedance, (this is routinely achieved) they have to sound the same when played at identical volume levels. What could cause a difference?
If two power amp have low distortion, noise, flat frequency response and low output impedance, (this is routinely achieved) they have to sound the same when played at identical volume levels. What could cause a difference?
I just imagine how great his system could be if all that money had instead gone to speakers, room, dsp processing . The one and only amp blind I did ended with none of us being able to tell any of the 3(including a Yamaha AVR) apart. It was disheartening at the time, since I had just purchased the other two amps in hopes of taking my JTRs and Revels to another level. Looking back, though, I'm so glad I did that test. Now I can spend way more on more speakers and other hobbies .
If two power amp have low distortion, noise, flat frequency response and low output impedance, (this is routinely achieved) they have to sound the same when played at identical volume levels. What could cause a difference?
Indeed. And I'm of the opinion that placebo induced differences are real so long as the listener never learns the truth. He didn't just think he heard differences, he likely really did(and does) hear differences. As long as it made him happy, then I'm happy for him.
Still, I'm glad I've learned the truth, as even with expectation bias, loudspeaker differences are much larger.
I just imagine how great his system could be if all that money had instead gone to speakers, room, dsp processing . The one and only amp blind I did ended with none of us being able to tell any of the 3(including a Yamaha AVR) apart. It was disheartening at the time, since I had just purchased the other two amps in hopes of taking my JTRs and Revels to another level. Looking back, though, I'm so glad I did that test. Now I can spend way more on more speakers and other hobbies .
I had the same experience blind-comparing my new $900 class D amp against a Nelson Pass designed MOSFET amp. I just don’t worry much about the sound of electronics any more (but I still buy more cool electronics occasionally, I just avoid the multi-kilobuck amps and preamps).
I had the same experience blind-comparing my new $900 class D amp against a Nelson Pass designed MOSFET amp. I just don’t worry much about the sound of electronics any more (but I still buy more cool electronics occasionally, I just avoid the multi-kilobuck amps and preamps).
I had the same experience blind-comparing my new $900 class D amp against a Nelson Pass designed MOSFET amp. I just don’t worry much about the sound of electronics any more (but I still buy more cool electronics occasionally, I just avoid the multi-kilobuck amps and preamps).
If two power amp have low distortion, noise, flat frequency response and low output impedance, (this is routinely achieved) they have to sound the same when played at identical volume levels. What could cause a difference?
In order imho.
Noise level. Hzzzzz is never good.
Power ( you need more than you think ) .*
Capacity to drive low impedance and reactive impedance .*
* the identical volume is to much for one DUT it’s stressed somehow, so you are not testing what you think you are testing.
Output impedance/ damping factor ( just a number derived from output impedance) is not very flat over the whole audible range .example older badly designed class D has low and nice output impedance at low frequency, but it shoots up to objectionable levels in the treble and combined with some speakers your FR is not flat anymore.
Besides the fact that FR deviation can cause soundstage differences as watchnerd pointed out to us ( but then your amp is not functional in some gross way)
FR Flat devices like amps and DACs does not really do soundstage it’s in the recording speakers or your room and placements of your speakers.
It’s a bugaboo that pop up to often imho “soundstage” you need eq and DSP to really change it.
If you assume decently designed electronics with flat FR good channel separation low SINAD such normal design ( aviable to you from 9$ and up ) does not have any “soundstage” altering properties.
So when someone claims his new digital coax cable alters soundstage!? I would really want to now how did someone built a micro DSP/EQ thing and hid it in the cable ?
Yeah, really bugs the crap out of me when people talk about the sound from cables, amps, DACs, etc. like they're regarding wine. I have seen zero actual evidence to suggest that an amp can improve things like soundstage. Even less evidence that cables can improve audio, they can only degrade it. The day I replaced all my MIT and Monster Cable crap with bluejeanscable.com stuff was one of the happiest of my life.
So for those of us who aren't electrical engineers, can anyone summarise the main points that should be observed when choosing cables? Is it as simple as ensuring the correct gauge for resistance purposes? Or is there any worth in checking capacitance, purity of copper content etc?
I wouldn't for a second consider spending £000's on wires (not even £00's), but I assume there must be a real lower limit? Or is the stuff you wire a house with just as good as some of the snake-oil sellers' product claims?
Unfortunately, he doesn't live there anymore, so the opportunities to assess the room further have gone. It was a very modest system as well, which is what amazed me so much. Literally a pair of LS50s, a Quad amp and middle-of-the-road streamer and DAC.
With regards manipulation of variables, you're preaching to the converted. I hate when fellow colleagues make sweeping software changes and then can't explain what the differences in the vehicles were (I work in automotive chassis systems development). Which reminds me of the golden rule - No data? No problem!
So for those of us who aren't electrical engineers, can anyone summarise the main points that should be observed when choosing cables? Is it as simple as ensuring the correct gauge for resistance purposes? Or is there any worth in checking capacitance, purity of copper content etc?
I wouldn't for a second consider spending £000's on wires (not even £00's), but I assume there must be a real lower limit? Or is the stuff you wire a house with just as good as some of the snake-oil sellers' product claims?
For speakers, copper wire resistance below 10% of the impedance of the speakers, with insulation that doesn’t react with copper. (Google Roger Russell, who has a good page on this—he was the designer of loudspeakers for McIntosh). Parallel-laid wire (“zip cord”) is fine, as long as it clearly shows polarity. I use 12-gauge copper zip cord with clear insulation, because it’s fine to be oversized and I could buy a 250-foot roll.
For line-level interconnects, shielded wire with tight-fitting RCA plugs or quality XLR connectors (if balanced).
For coaxial digital, as above but style points if you get wire with an impedance of 75 ohms.
For phonographs with moving-magnet cartridges, check that the cartridge manufacturer’s recommended capacitance isn’t exceeded.
And cables should be flexible enough not to stress sockets (particularly RCA sockets), which are often mounted on PC boards and secured only by the solder. Most cables will use stranded wire for this reason.
I paid under $100 for a 250-foot roll of speaker wire, and I think about $10 each for interconnect cables.
. The one and only amp blind I did ended with none of us being able to tell any of the 3(including a Yamaha AVR) apart. It was disheartening at the time, since I had just purchased the other two amps in hopes of taking my JTRs and Revels to another level. Looking back, though, I'm so glad I did that test. Now I can spend way more on more speakers and other hobbies 
