Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[welsh]

Yes, expectation bias works both ways. That’s why the participants in such a test should not be told what the test is about - the only thing they are asked to do is to answer the question if they hear a difference between A, B and X.

One of the most popular anti-science gambits is: ‘Hey, I didn’t expect it, but I preferred the sound of the CHEAPER component!’ Therefore, I have no biases!

 

[welsh]

Yup, the price of being in a relationship.

With my wife we came to a "don't ask don't tell." She generally doesn't want to know how much things cost, but over the years, having had glimpses here and there when I'm selling gear, she has some ideas. (If she asks about the price of a new piece of equipment, I don't fib about the cost).

When I was married, I had to smuggle new guitars into the house. Once they were in, she didn’t seem to notice them (actually, she was probably just humouring me...)

 

[welsh]

I understand what you are saying. My first experiences of recorded music [more of a "madeleine" than anything I've tasted] are of my father playing Nat King Cole on one of those portable mono record players everybody used to have. By the time I was nine, had a Viscount Portable Pocket Transistor AM radio when I was living in LA in 1964. Had one of those cheap and nasty in-ear earphones, smuggled the apparatus into my elementary school. KFWB, KHJ, KRLA. "The Girl From Ipanema" cheek by jowl with "A Hard Day's Night" and "Everybody Loves Somebody". One could easily sense that something revolutionary was going on, one needed to keep track of chart action, one paid attention to the announcers telling us that "Under The Boardwalk" was creeping up on "Dang Me", "When I Grow Up To Be A Man" was losing out to "Baby Love". It seemed to be a disc competition happening in real time. Once they were "oldies", that kind of energy went away.

And this kind of experience was happening with audio of the lowest quality. No matter how fine the quality of the playback gear, nothing could ever replicate hearing "I Feel Fine" for the first time on LA Radio in the sixties.

I can relate to this. My formative, and in hindsight most valued, experience of music was provided by a tiny mono transistor radio that I smuggled into school. I vividly remember hearing Lou Reed’s Walk on the Wild Side for the first time, while hiding in the shrubbery in order to avoid being involved in a school sports day.

 

[welsh]

How about linear tonearms. Or even more drastic Limited content where there is no musical content near the center

I don’t think that even a linear tonearm can do much about the progressively lessening information per second on an LP.

 

[welsh]

What I'm looking for is the cheapest way to get the highest fidelity.

Which somehow brings Dolly Parton to mind.

I love Dolly Parton! Not only can she somehow play guitar with those nails, but she has some killer, knowing quotes, like: ‘You wouldn’t believe how expensive it is to look this cheap!’

 

[welsh]

What speaker cables will best best for use on Mars?

Oxygen-free.

 

[Robin L]

I love Dolly Parton! Not only can she somehow play guitar with those nails, but she has some killer, knowing quotes, like: ‘You wouldn’t believe how expensive it is to look this cheap!’

My point being: "I had no idea that being this cheap would be so expensive".

 

[welsh]

In the (50s?) Betty Crocker had an issue with selling packet mix cake that Psychologists eventually solved. It became an early example of counter intuitive value systems that people have.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20171027-the-magic-cakes-that-come-from-a-packet

In blind tests, powdered egg tasted better, but the buyers claimed that it tasted worse when the item was on the shelf, and the product was not selling.

The truth? The 'experience' with the product was that buyers (mainly women) felt that it was too easy, and 'appeared' to be too little work to their families if they just poured water in a dry mix. It didn't 'show' that they cared.

So Betty Crocker removed the powdered egg. The buyer was now to add their own 'Fresh' egg.

It sold in record numbers.

My favourite example of consumer advertising gone wrong was a brand in the ‘fifties that claimed their luggage would survive a fall from an airliner. Then consumers naturally thought about ...themselves. Death doesn’t sell.

 

[steve59]

In an entertainment hobby context, why is this a problem?

And why does it need to be solved?

Why does one need to change the beliefs of people who enjoy the hobby from a different angle?

And why would there be any greater chance of success at trying to get subjectivists to change their point of view today than there has been over the last several decades?

The 'Carver Challenge' after all was 45 years ago......

Other than a momentary controversy, I don't perceive that it changed the world of subjective audio reviewing, audio hobby culture, or merchandising.

It does make one wonder who's behind the curtain...Why would these guys keep insisting "don't trust your ears, trust the spins".

 

[adc]

In an entertainment hobby context, why is this a problem?

And why does it need to be solved?

Why does one need to change the beliefs of people who enjoy the hobby from a different angle?

I think it's because we engineer-types have a lifelong, deep-seated desperation to make people understand how critical thinking works, and how unacknowledged biases affect decisionmaking. This may be a hobby, but the pathology it represents is no trivial matter these days.

Not that I think the seriousness of the matter has any bearing on our likelihood of success in the endeavor.

 

[GGroch]

In an entertainment hobby context, why is this a problem?
And why does it need to be solved?
Why does one need to change the beliefs of people who enjoy the hobby from a different angle?......
The 'Carver Challenge' after all was 45 years ago...Other than a momentary controversy, I don't perceive that it changed the world of subjective audio reviewing.....

No, but the Carver challenge did catapult a successful amp brand into a dominant one. Bob's goal was not to shame wealthy audiophiles**, it was to sell more cheap amps and Bob sold a ton of "T" transfer function amps as a result. He proved you did not have to spend $$$$ to get sound nearly indistinguishable from luxury esoteric components. In 1985 that mattered to me because audio was a passion, and cheap amps were what I could afford.

In my view, this discussion is not at all about how rich guys choose their toys. Proving that those with modest means are not forever doomed to be second class audio citizens is a good thing. If we convince budding gen Z audiophiles with student loans to pay that their stock power cord sounds every bit as good as a $400 audiofool model, that is a good thing. If in the process we cost shill spouting snake oil salesmen a few bucks in revenue, that's good too.

I am not at all concerned about how gazillionaire audiophiles spend their money or if their feelings get hurt. You're right, its very unlikely we can convince them anyway. I do think the world of audio information has changed for the better. Objectivity is far more accessible today. In 1985 commissioned salespeople and ad supported magazines were almost the only way learn about products. Today, every YouTube video posted by audio shills is immediately challenged in the comments. That's good too.

**I am sure shaming the audiofool industry was Bob's stretch goal, but not his main business goal.

 

[krott5333]

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You bought the cables and the little bridge thingies for them to sit upon and the benefits were magical. You bought the $1000 IEMs that only truly sang after 250 hours of burn-in. Not 200 hours...or 225 hours, but 250 hours! It must be that for the magic to appear! You converted your entire music library to super high res and enjoyed the blissful new details that never were revealed by the awful, cludgy mess that was 16/44 cd. Never have your ears been assaulted by the likes of bluetooth audio or lossy mp3! You searched endlessly for the perfect dac...the dac that truly brought the magic! You bought one after another, each more expensive than the last, searching for the one, true dac that sounded better than all the rest...

And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! Suddenly your audio reality came crashing down around you. How can this be? Why shouldn't a dac sound great?? Why would expensive dacs even exist if they all sound the same??? Wounded, you lash out angrily! It's idiocy! It's retarded! These people have dead ears! It hurts. We understand. It's been a long time and you've spent a lot of money, all for naught. But once the pain diminishes and you've had time to deal with your emotions just give it some thought. Do some reading here and once your ban is lifted, maybe ask a few questions. Instead of locking your eyes shut against the bright light of objectivity...just open them up a little. Just a squint! Let a bit of that light in and bask in a warm, tubey glow that actually means something! Perhaps, as with many of us, a weight will begin to lift off your shoulders. Perhaps there is freedom in this new reality! You might discover that there is a different way...a way that wields real magic. A way that actually answers questions and reveals truth while at the same time leaving your wallet fat and happy! Welcome my friend. Welcome to ASR where the truth shall set you free!

damn that was truly beautiful

 

[Wes]

I disagree...

Those with modest means are forever doomed to be second class audio citizens until the Revel Salons drop by 1/10 in price.

For electronics, yes.

 

[steve59]

This is the revel forum after all, what other company would tell you to ignore your ears and trust the spins.

 

[richard12511]

Why would these guys keep insisting "don't trust your ears, trust the spins".

That's the exact opposite of what many of us are saying, though. We're saying trust your ears(blind testing). It's the more subjective crowd who wants you to believe that you can't trust your ears, hence their usually strong opposition to blind tests.

"Trust your ears, but only as long you can see/know what your listening to. Don't worry about those blind tests showing electronics all mostly sound the same, they weren't long term enough, they're listeners weren't good enough, or the systems they used weren't resolving enough"

 

[richard12511]

I am not at all concerned about how gazillionaire audiophiles spend their money or if their feelings get hurt. You're right, its very unlikely we can convince them anyway.

There's likely no convincing someone that their $20,000 amp or $10,000 DAC sounds no better than a $1,000 or $200 equivalent. Even a blind test in their own room would fail. He'd still find some excuse as to why he should trust his sighted evaluations more.

For me, convincing them is a lost cause. The expectation bias is just too strong. I also take no joy in telling people that they wasted money on an electronic component that makes no difference. I'd really much rather them continue enjoying all that juicy placebo . I only somewhat debate those folks for the sake of the other - less well informed - folk who may be reading.

I fell victim to these subjective folk early in my audio journey, though luckily it didn't cost me huge money.

 

[richard12511]

This is the revel forum after all, what other company would tell you to ignore your ears and trust the spins.

Again, the opposite is true. Revel is one of the very few companies out there telling you to trust your ears. "Trusting your ears" is the entire foundation of what Revel was built on.

 

[Robin L]

look, a recommendation is typically for those who *haven’t yet* done something, not, in this case, Washingtonians with a standing order from the local dispensary.

If we are suggesting a *first time* investment in this new sound..tweak, I..er..audiophiles should not be embarrassed to have a child-like sensitivity to the..dr...er....new component.

The legal stuff isn’t the ditchweed of boomer childhood. It doesn’t take much to completely fascinate the user with the incredible wash of details in sound...and not much more to put him to bed for the night.

i say think of it as EQ. One should start with a wee bit.

This reminds me of some brownies that scared my friends.

 

[Helicopter]

I could use some help/opinion.

I want to get a new Receiver and use it primarily as a Processor for streaming music at low to medium sound levels for 3 zones and some Home theater.

So, Before ASR, and in search of the "perfect warm holographic sound", I have already acquired 3 amps, Emotiva Gen3 7 channel , Emotiva Gen3 3 channel DR3, and a 2 channel PrimaLuna tube amplifier.

I've kinda narrowed it down to Denon 8500H, Marantz SR8015, Denon 6700H or maybe even the Denon 4700H.

If I'm using any of these for just their processor, would there be much of a difference in the quality of the sound?

Will the Denon's sound essentially the same as the Marantz,?

Get a Denon. They have better performance and better price than Marantz. Really nothing challenges Denon performance in an AVR. The 8500 is about the best there is, but the others are great for the price.

 

[Mnyb]

There's likely no convincing someone that their $20,000 amp or $10,000 DAC sounds no better than a $1,000 or $200 equivalent. Even a blind test in their own room would fail. He'd still find some excuse as to why he should trust his sighted evaluations more.

For me, convincing them is a lost cause. The expectation bias is just too strong. I also take no joy in telling people that they wasted money on an electronic component that makes no difference. I'd really much rather them continue enjoying all that juicy placebo . I only somewhat debate those folks for the sake of the other - less well informed - folk who may be reading.

I fell victim to these subjective folk early in my audio journey, though luckily it didn't cost me huge money.

Yes sometimes we debate to convince these on the fence rather than the fully committed flat earther who will never change .

But it’s to pessimistic to say people can not change. I was stuck in the Audiophile land close to 15 years. Convinced of the deep mysteries about Audio.

The undoing of the audiophile is written on the wall I think for two reasons .

It’s dying breed these oldies will die off the ranks or not filled up in the same pace as they die off.

Shit it’s getting crasier all the time , when power cables and digital cables where becoming big things I found a loose tread and pulled wtf the whole thing feel apart for me . Now it’s even crazier tweaks network switches tweaking the os on your file server audiophile sata cables ? It’s getting so weird that it’s hard to lure people in .