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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

FrantzM

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Well....

Re: Soundstage

Psychoacoustically, in the mixing world, it's a known trick that you can manipulate the forward/back impression of a soundstage by adjusting a PEQ (Q 1.0, +/- ~2 dB range) at 1600 Hz.

Supposedly Nelson Pass intentionally colors some of his amp's response curve to manipulate the impression of soundstage.

Now, one might argue that this is an 'effects box' rather than an improvement....and I have no issue with that.

But a non-flat amp can manipulate the psychoacoustic impression of a soundstage.

Whether that's an improvement or not is a subjective matter.


That would be a neat engineering feat to pull this without it showing on a FR sweep. Thing many of those amps, including Nelson Pass' show a nice flat FR from 20 to 20,000 within .5 dB
From Stereophile ... the XA.30.5
1615461205802.png


Still from Stereophile for the X1000 in what they call "simulated loudspeaker" load ...

1615461404935.png


Notice that for the graph above the scale for the amplitude (vertical) .

One is a 30 wpc and the other I suppose a more than 500 wpc amplifier... The Frequency response graphs are flat as pancake in the midrange (elsewhere too but....). I am close to certain that there will be a bloom in the midrange and miles of depth and ligh-years of width of the soundstage from the usual reviewers....

I have come to understand that on things that are subjective, the trick is to find a few people, in the old days we called them "critics", now they are called and with just reason, "influencers"... , who can develop the ability to sway public opinions, based on their own opinions (sincere or not)_ of given products, ware or oeuvre. This is a serious debate, as the critics have a role they play in shaping the sense, direction of aesthetics and even behavior, of a group of people. People cannot see all plays there are or films or l read all poetry or books or ... paintings, etc, thus Societies have come to rely and even encourage some people with the requisite writing or oratorical skills to critic the production of artists, artisans, producer of goods, goods and, yes, manufacturers. Their influence has grown, we find them in anything and everything from automobiles to restaurant, places, cities , instrument or wines, etc .... They have a certain usefulness and they are often wrong too, even statistically. We have seen movies that were panned by critics, yet become mega-success with people flocking the theaters and stores to purchase these ( same with music by the way ... ).

not entirely a rant and this is on-topics so please read on... It i part of the message to any audiophile who visits ASR

We are at a point where we can produce at very low prices devices whose purpose is to capture, reproduce or amplify audio signals within the limits of the human hearing apparatus: exceedingly precise microphone like the miniDSP U-mike is $100, 30 years ago it might have cost thousands of dollars to get similar performance. A perfectly transparent DAC is in the form of a dongle, people a dongle!!! Costing $9.oo , nine dollars!!! … We can record and store on a stupid $300 laptop what in he od days would have required a multi-thousand dollars tape recorder. Yet we have also seen the same rise of the critics aka “audio reviewers” and some of them are arbiters of taste and in many ways king makers. To name , names without actually "naming names" :D, a person named Mildly Frame-it of a certain 'phile magazine could kill a product by just not liking it or even simply changing from it to another brand … companies rise because , mf, "likes their product so much, he had to buy it"..., back in the days so could the fabled and late HP from an … absolute magazine... And there exist their homologues on the Internet too. The High End Audio industry understand this. They understand the serious money that can be made selling luxury and they developed this symbiotic relationship.

At one of the receiving ends are the audiophiles by now entirely convinced that measurements don't
tell the whole story. He/she is from that point in time prepped… he/she knows that the ideal is there likely attained by that $115,000 quad-boxes “stack” but that is a serious amount of money for just one component, a bit out of what he/she can or is willing to spend; so he starts chasing that sound around a lesser budget. He will get a $20,000 DAC he will audition it, like it purchase it and a few months or years later no longer be satisfied and now move sideways in price and get the Svetlaveck 1050 which was said to be almost (the magical word) as good as the $115,000 DAC system; That one review by an influencer aka “audio reviewer” who reviewed for many days on his $350,000 speaker driven by the $75,000 preamplifier , the $150,000 amplifier, and the $75,000 speaker cable, of course they used the MuitZoon USB cable that cost $10,000…. This one, theMuitZoon "Perfect Digit" treated cryogenically and bomabraded by quantum mechanics USB cable, he may be able to stretch a bit and acquire it … You can see a lot of thousands going in some people's pockets, for what is simply a dressed-up version of a Belkin USB cable, likely from the exact same factory and, of course, same measurements (which as you should remember don’t matter)…. He will eventually not like that DAC, too since it lacks musicality and realism … Thus, next, he’ll get totally "dacked" by a Tube DAC costing less than his current one: $15,000…. Hot tubes to warm up the glacial pace of Solid state and digital reproduction. Totally!


This is changing, ASR and other are showing to audiophiles that there is a better way. That there exists an objective reality, that we humans share a lot in how we hear and what we prefer to hear… That there are limits to what we can hear and that there are much less expensive way to reach audio nirvana: Focus on measurements, mostly on speakers.

The next step to me is how to approach the room, the last frontier. What set of measurements of strategies of preparation for our rooms, of research of practical ways to have a decent room and, yes, at what cost. It makes no sense to have $10,000 of room treatments to enjoy a great measuring $600/pair active speaker pair (e.g. JBL LSR 308) driven by a PC and a $200 DAC… For room treatments we need studies and guides, set of measurements that are relevant and accessible to mere mortals.

Peace
 
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watchnerd

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That would be a neat engineering feat to pull this without it showing on a FR sweep.

Indeed it would be.

I don't think Pass, or anyone else, claimed it wouldn't be visible on an FR graph; that's why I used the term "non flat" amps.

Although he also has made some statements about intentional distortion effects, too.

I'm not intimate with his product lines, so I'm not clear on which particular amps he was allegedly referring to.
 

ahofer

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When I was young, I was a bouncer in a strip club.
That’s a lot of hard-earned dollars. I sort of think the strippers earn it more than the kilobuck cables guys though.

One could sell lottery tickets. I remember watching immigrant laborers line up to buy those. Now *that* was sad. And the State is the bookie.
 

egellings

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Output impedance is a measure of damping factor, one of 2 numbers in that quotient.
 

devopsprodude

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So for those of us who aren't electrical engineers, can anyone summarise the main points that should be observed when choosing cables? Is it as simple as ensuring the correct gauge for resistance purposes? Or is there any worth in checking capacitance, purity of copper content etc?

I wouldn't for a second consider spending £000's on wires (not even £00's), but I assume there must be a real lower limit? Or is the stuff you wire a house with just as good as some of the snake-oil sellers' product claims?
I highly recommend bluejeanscable.com stuff. They are a no nonsense cable maker and use high quality connectors. Their speaker wire is twisted pair, which has obvious advantages in terms of RF noise rejection, and no BS. Most of their stuff is also rated for in-wall use. 12 gauge is sufficient, but overkill for most situations, not that there's anything wrong with being conservative. I guarantee that you won't hear anything better than what they sell. I know that when I replaced the Monster Cable speaker cables I was using with the BJC 10 they sell, loudness increased, which is about the only difference analog cables can make.

For interconnects, it really doesn't matter much, but again, I like the bluejeans stuff because of the connectors they use, but you can get stuff from Monoprice or whatever that works just as well for less.

When it comes to digital cables, you just want to find cheapest cables that actually support the data rate required. Length is a bigger factor there than quality of cable, to some degree. But like if you have two cables that are known to support your required spec, one is $25 and one is $55 for same length, there's no reason to buy the more expensive cable, IMO. The trick there is that they actually have to support the required spec.
 
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sajgre

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It takes lots of self esteem to admit that "magical" dac sounds the same as yamaha that I bought years back at the start of hifi obsession. I seem to have it and I just thought that I can't hear what reviewers can with ease. Until I found this place. To all the contributors: thaaaaank you!!
 

rdenney

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BJC wants $50 for terminated 22-foot 12-gauge cables, which means $200 for my situation. That's not boutique pricing, but it's still a lot. It's fair for installing the terminations, I think, for those who don't want to use bare wire or install their own.

As to using 10-gauge for 4-ohm speakers, it really depends on how low it goes over how much of the spectrum. A nominal 4-ohm speaker may dip to 2.5 ohms in spots, and the 5% of that that Roger Russel recommends as a maximum for the wire would be .125 ohms. 12-gauge copper has a resistance of 0.0016 ohms/foot. Keeping to Roger's threshold would allow 78 feet for the total of both directions (both wires), so 39 feet.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

My Revel speakers dip down to under 4 ohms in one spot, but should probably be considered nominal 6-ohm speakers. But even at the 3.9-ohm minimum, Roger suggests a maximum run of 50 feet (which is his cap).

Revel themselves, in the user manual, is even more conservative, but they suggest a maximum of 22 feet for 12-gauge wire. The resistance for that run would be 0.07 ohms, out and back.

I'm not thinking 12-gauge is too small at all for 4-ohm speakers, depending on the length of the run.

Rick "who has never picked up RF on speaker wire such that the speakers would hear it, even when five feet away from a 1500-watt ham radio transmitter" Denney
 

devopsprodude

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BJC wants $50 for terminated 22-foot 12-gauge cables, which means $200 for my situation. That's not boutique pricing, but it's still a lot. It's fair for installing the terminations, I think, for those who don't want to use bare wire or install their own.

As to using 10-gauge for 4-ohm speakers, it really depends on how low it goes over how much of the spectrum. A nominal 4-ohm speaker may dip to 2.5 ohms in spots, and the 5% of that that Roger Russel recommends as a maximum for the wire would be .125 ohms. 12-gauge copper has a resistance of 0.0016 ohms/foot. Keeping to Roger's threshold would allow 78 feet for the total of both directions (both wires), so 39 feet.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

My Revel speakers dip down to under 4 ohms in one spot, but should probably be considered nominal 6-ohm speakers. But even at the 3.9-ohm minimum, Roger suggests a maximum run of 50 feet (which is his cap).

Revel themselves, in the user manual, is even more conservative, but they suggest a maximum of 22 feet for 12-gauge wire. The resistance for that run would be 0.07 ohms, out and back.

I'm not thinking 12-gauge is too small at all for 4-ohm speakers, depending on the length of the run.

Rick "who has never picked up RF on speaker wire such that the speakers would hear it, even when five feet away from a 1500-watt ham radio transmitter" Denney
Yep, this https://usa.yamaha.com/support/faq/proaudio/7034.html agrees with you.

I self terminated the speaker wire with banana plugs when I bought what I have now. I bought 10 gauge because I'd rather buy once and not worry about it after that, even if it's overkill. This was also when 10 gauge was 60 cents a foot and I was coming from Monster Cable land where even their crappy stuff was over $1 a foot.
 

devopsprodude

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Rick "who has never picked up RF on speaker wire such that the speakers would hear it, even when five feet away from a 1500-watt ham radio transmitter" Denney
Guessing the problem was within components themselves whenever computer speakers or whatever would pick up RF from cell phones back in the day?

Also, yes, I'm highly aware that buying 10 gauge wire for "peace of mind" isn't 100% rational, but we're not rational beings. At least I'm not trying to defend it by saying things like "the speaker wires really opened up the soundstage of my system". :D Although switching from Monster Cable wires to BJC increased the volume of the system, but that would have happened with the BJC 12 gauge twisted pair wire too. Speaks more to the crappy nature of the Monster Cable nonsense than anything else.
 

kristiansen

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So for those of us who aren't electrical engineers, can anyone summarise the main points that should be observed when choosing cables? Is it as simple as ensuring the correct gauge for resistance purposes? Or is there any worth in checking capacitance, purity of copper content etc?

I wouldn't for a second consider spending £000's on wires (not even £00's), but I assume there must be a real lower limit? Or is the stuff you wire a house with just as good as some of the snake-oil sellers' product claims?
Do you believe that capacitors can sound different, you must see the cable as an elongated capacitor where both conductor and dialectric / insulation are important for the sound.
Do you not believe there is any difference in the sound of passive components such as resistors, capacitors and coils limit the considerations to a suitable square that matches the current to be transmitted
 

sergeauckland

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Do you believe that capacitors can sound different, you must see the cable as an elongated capacitor where both conductor and dialectric / insulation are important for the sound.
Do you not believe there is any difference in the sound of passive components such as resistors, capacitors and coils limit the considerations to a suitable square that matches the current to be transmitted
Welcome to our new member, and I accept the comment about Google being responsible for the English, but I would like to point out that belief should have nothing to do with HiFi or audio engineering, it should always be evidence. Belief without evidence is just faith.

As far as loudspeaker cables go, the only thing that matters with an unconditionally stable amplifier is the resistance of the cable. Thickness in itself doesn't matter, even bell wire will do if it's short. With amplifiers which are not unconditionally stable, cable inductance and capacitance can matter very much, as if the cable is of high capacitance and/or low inductance (the two tend to go together), the amplifier can oscillate at very high frequencies and at best it won't sound as good, and at worse it'll overheat and destroy itself.

For valved amplifiers, where the output impedance is likely to be a lot higher than a good SS amplifier, cable resistance matters less, but for Good Practice should still be low.

S.
 

StuartC

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@kristiansen , until I see a comprehensive DOE (design of experiments) which tests a sweep of simulated resistance, impedance, capacitance, dielectric/insulation combinations for differences in frequency response/noise floor/max SPL/etc etc, then no, I won't believe in a sound difference due to the cable on its own (the impact of a cable on an unstable amplifier is another situation altogether). If you can point me to peer reviewed tests undertaken according to sound scientific principles and which are irrefutable proof (not evidence, but proof) that on modern hifi equipment cables can sound different then please do.

I do a lot of data analysis and control systems development within the automotive industry, and when it comes to finding subjective problems with control systems performance we have a golden rule. No data, no problem!

@sergeauckland , regarding the comment about unstable amplifiers. With the level of maturity of the majority of most modern hifi offerings is this still an issue? Or is it more prevalent than I'd expect? (excluding DIY electronics assembled by a novice or the uninformed for instance). I guess a parallel question is what determines stability in an amplifier, and is it easily neglected by a manufacturer?
 

Helicopter

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@kristiansen , until I see a comprehensive DOE (design of experiments) which tests a sweep of simulated resistance, impedance, capacitance, dielectric/insulation combinations for differences in frequency response/noise floor/max SPL/etc etc, then no, I won't believe in a sound difference due to the cable on its own (the impact of a cable on an unstable amplifier is another situation altogether). If you can point me to peer reviewed tests undertaken according to sound scientific principles and which are irrefutable proof (not evidence, but proof) that on modern hifi equipment cables can sound different then please do.

I do a lot of data analysis and control systems development within the automotive industry, and when it comes to finding subjective problems with control systems performance we have a golden rule. No data, no problem!

@sergeauckland , regarding the comment about unstable amplifiers. With the level of maturity of the majority of most modern hifi offerings is this still an issue? Or is it more prevalent than I'd expect? (excluding DIY electronics assembled by a novice or the uninformed for instance). I guess a parallel question is what determines stability in an amplifier, and is it easily neglected by a manufacturer?
One of my amps is not stable. Low impedance loads cause plate current to oscillate... but it is a tube amp and if the cables change performance they would need a lot of resistance and that resistance might help rather than hurt.
 
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sergeauckland

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@kristiansen , until I see a comprehensive DOE (design of experiments) which tests a sweep of simulated resistance, impedance, capacitance, dielectric/insulation combinations for differences in frequency response/noise floor/max SPL/etc etc, then no, I won't believe in a sound difference due to the cable on its own (the impact of a cable on an unstable amplifier is another situation altogether). If you can point me to peer reviewed tests undertaken according to sound scientific principles and which are irrefutable proof (not evidence, but proof) that on modern hifi equipment cables can sound different then please do.

I do a lot of data analysis and control systems development within the automotive industry, and when it comes to finding subjective problems with control systems performance we have a golden rule. No data, no problem!

@sergeauckland , regarding the comment about unstable amplifiers. With the level of maturity of the majority of most modern hifi offerings is this still an issue? Or is it more prevalent than I'd expect? (excluding DIY electronics assembled by a novice or the uninformed for instance). I guess a parallel question is what determines stability in an amplifier, and is it easily neglected by a manufacturer?

It used to be an issue with NAIM amplifiers, don't know if it still is. It is still very much an issue with NVA amplifiers, who make a virtue of the amplifier being marginally stable and output unprotected, claiming it sounds better! NVA amps are only guaranteed if their loudspeaker cable is used, as this has high inductance (and low capacitance) making up for the lack of an output inductor and zobel network on the output. There is also no short-circuit protection again because they believe is sounds better like that. To their credit, they say they are only looking to sell to those who are prepared to put some effort into understanding their way of doing things.

S
 

Jimbob54

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It used to be an issue with NAIM amplifiers, don't know if it still is. It is still very much an issue with NVA amplifiers, who make a virtue of the amplifier being marginally stable and output unprotected, claiming it sounds better! NVA amps are only guaranteed if their loudspeaker cable is used, as this has high inductance (and low capacitance) making up for the lack of an output inductor and zobel network on the output. There is also no short-circuit protection again because they believe is sounds better like that. To their credit, they say they are only looking to sell to those who are prepared to put some effort into understanding their way of doing things.

S

The no compromise approach (NVA) ! Do we know if said amps sound or measure in any way better or different than a less compromised (dare I say safer?) amp of similar calibre?
 

Risc1911

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Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You bought the cables and the little bridge thingies for them to sit upon and the benefits were magical. You bought the $1000 IEMs that only truly sang after 250 hours of burn-in. Not 200 hours...or 225 hours, but 250 hours! It must be that for the magic to appear! You converted your entire music library to super high res and enjoyed the blissful new details that never were revealed by the awful, cludgy mess that was 16/44 cd. Never have your ears been assaulted by the likes of bluetooth audio or lossy mp3! You searched endlessly for the perfect dac...the dac that truly brought the magic! You bought one after another, each more expensive than the last, searching for the one, true dac that sounded better than all the rest...

And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! Suddenly your audio reality came crashing down around you. How can this be? Why shouldn't a dac sound great?? Why would expensive dacs even exist if they all sound the same??? Wounded, you lash out angrily! It's idiocy! It's retarded! These people have dead ears! It hurts. We understand. It's been a long time and you've spent a lot of money, all for naught. But once the pain diminishes and you've had time to deal with your emotions just give it some thought. Do some reading here and once your ban is lifted, maybe ask a few questions. Instead of locking your eyes shut against the bright light of objectivity...just open them up a little. Just a squint! Let a bit of that light in and bask in a warm, tubey glow that actually means something! Perhaps, as with many of us, a weight will begin to lift off your shoulders. Perhaps there is freedom in this new reality! You might discover that there is a different way...a way that wields real magic. A way that actually answers questions and reveals truth while at the same time leaving your wallet fat and happy! Welcome my friend. Welcome to ASR where the truth shall set you free!

So what you are saying is that i don't have to break in my USB cable over at least a year to get the best sound?
 

sergeauckland

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The no compromise approach (NVA) ! Do we know if said amps sound or measure in any way better or different than a less compromised (dare I say safer?) amp of similar calibre?
Never seen any measurements of NVA amps, and they don't publish any specs other than output power, and even that's just a bare number with no qualification. Their whole ethos seems to be one of 'trust your ears'.

S.
 
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