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Measurements and Review of Schiit Yggdrasil DAC

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Blumlein 88

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That's my thinking as well...just saying one set of measurements is significantly better is only part of the story. Being able to describe what the expected differences are in the listening results should be would be very useful (with allowances due to 'perception' differences as Garbulky mentions).

I was being dead serious when I asked the question regarding the THD+N differences [~50 dBs at 20 Hz!...Yggy (-61 dB@20 Hz), DX7 (-106dB@20 Hz) , E32 (-110 dB@20 Hz)]...which on the surface seems substantial! Surely, there must be some listening differences that align with those numbers when they're that disparate...yes?

With test tones I don't know that anyone can hear less than .1 % thd. That's -60 dB. With some music you might hear .5 to 2%. With other types of music anything less than 2% won't be noticed.

So safe place to draw the line is .1 %. Yet even the poor result of -50 db might almost never be heard.

Another example is channel separation. Give me 25 dB and you'll not hear a difference vs more. Yet that spec would be considered appalling for modern gear. Don't you want dual mono Amps now for that great soundstage?
 

Jimster480

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I leave most of my gear on. But I can't leave my XPA-1 gen 2 on simply due to it having huge amounts of power consumption in class A mode. I found the Gungnir to sound better after a week (subjective impression). But that wasn't why I was asking you about it. I don't use the Gungnir MB, I use a DC-1. I asked you because of Mike's reccomendation. I appreciate you retaking measurements within your ability.
When I got a mimby at first I let it run for days in order to compare its sound that is "supposed to get better in time".
I listened to it for a couple days and thought that my music sounded worse, after a couple days it seemed like it got better. So I swapped back to my other DAC at the time (Topping D30) and the D30 instantly sounded better. So I left the Mimby on for the rest of the week, kept listening to my D30 and listened to the Mimby again at the end of the week..... It still sounded bad, but actually now it sounded worse.
So the rule here goes back to you not being able to trust your ears because they will hear what they are accustomed to hearing. Listening to inferior quality sound for a couple days made it sound more acceptable to me until I was introduced to the better sound again.
I was alot newer to the audio world back then, but the artifacts in music played back by Mimby were very apparent especially in the classical pieces I was listening to.

Don't believe multi day subjective nonsense about things sounding better, they are just hoping you will train your brain to like their crappy sound so you don't return it.
 

Jimster480

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They are very censorship happy over there. Jason posted a chapter and in it he mentioned a 25 watt class A amp. I mentioned that I liked it and that I had an XPA-1 gen 2 which did 60 watts in class A. It was immediately deleted. And the response was something along the lines of just one spec doesn't tell the whole story. Which I found unusual. So I said, the reason I mentioned it was the only thing we know about this class A amp is that it does x number of watts in class A. Then I was asked why I was talking about an amp that may be vaporware anyway. Very confusing. That was what the chapter was about! So I bowed out.

I think they or at least Jason take their online presence seriously and don't want any kind of competition mentioned.
I completely understand why @amirm won't pursue the conversation. They don't really want to talk to him. But if you did, Schiit has an official email that they are "supposed" to respond to very fast. And I mention that because they don't have a phone line. Everything is done through that email.
Though they have mentioned they won't respond to things that aren't worth their time. So they may not respond either.
they won't respond to emails, I have emailed them about the issues with my USB interface with the Fulla2 before and they full on blamed it on my PC despite whatever emails I sent them.
This is after they replaced my "defective" unit with a "new" unit and the "new" unit had exactly the same problems.

My posting abilities at headfi were revoked after I found the SMSL xUSB and posted about it around the forum. Especially to people asking for a USB->SPDIF converter... because I wasn't recommending the Schiit product my posts kept getting deleted. When people would reply with the Eitr and I told them that the xUSB could do the same thing... my posts were edited or deleted again with warnings from mods that my information cannot be backed up and that I haven't purchased both units to test side by side. Because apparently if you recommend something that isn't a schiit product there needs to be proof that it works with measurements that say that it does the same thing??????? Honestly it made no sense to me and within a few days of recommending it in 5 different threads or so my posting abilities in every thread I had mentioned it in were removed.
There was a guy from ARK Audio who posted in the Magni 3 thread and asked Jason (or whoever was manning that thread) about the voltage numbers in Magni 3 and said that the voltage of their wall wart didn't allow for the voltage they were claiming in output unless they had multiplied the voltage several times over which could cause instability or something along those lines.
They were quick to erase his posts and say that he shouldn't be posting technical information in the thread.

So if you post technical information about schiit products = you are banned from the thread
If you post recommendations to non-schiit products = your posts are deleted and you are later banned from the thread for not providing measurements

They even deleted posts of mine recommending the D30 or M8 in several threads when people were asking about DACs at $250 or less because I said they were better than mimby in my experiences.
My posts were removed for "no conclusive evidence to prove that these DAC's are better than Modi Multibit"... so once again recommending a non-schiit product requires evidence. Recommending a schiit product based on nothing at all but subjectivity = Expected behavior.
As I developed a following on the forum and became more well known they were curating my posts every single day based on me making recommendations for anything people asked me about. In the mrspeakers Aeon thread some people were writing about how the Fulla 2 doesn't work well with the Aeon and the soundstage sounds compressed (I also tested this and found it to sound very poor and sometimes experience a buzzing noise). When I referenced these posts to someone who had an Aeon and was looking at a Fulla 2... my post was deleted and the posts I referenced were also deleted. Someone else responded telling him the Fulla 2 is great... which then sparked a discussion because many people in the thread said specifically not to get it for the Aeon... now I understand that the thread got a bit off topic but within hours they deleted all the posts again except the post telling the guy that the Fulla 2 was great for the reason of "offtopic posts".

So with all that being said... I wouldn't expect anyone from Schiit to ever try to talk to someone with measurements because they themselves know that their business is a scam. They are intentionally ripping people off with the idea that they can just force their products to have good reviews by removing all objectivity and poor reviews from all threads. Another tactic they use is when a poor review is posted or someone is dissatisfied there will randomly be a few "regular posters" who will start talking about random songs they like to listen to in the thread and fill up 2 pages of offtopic nonsense (which ofcourse won't be cleaned up by the mods even if reported) so that anyone checking the thread will have to scroll back a few pages to see someones dissatisfaction.
 

Jimster480

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Because 1) I don't believe Mike is a charlatan, 2) I believe your measurements are genuine, and 3) I want to know how to resolve that conflict in my mind, so 4) I want more information.
Amir has no reason to chase them down.
He knows very well that nothing will come of it and that they really don't care.
At very best I wouldn't be surprised if they offered him a sum of money to shut up.

In my case they offered to refund me every Penny I ever spent with Schiit if I put the issue to rest.

At no point in time is this site a personal attack on any mfg, its simply a site with measurements of various equipment (a rapidly growing list of various equipment) and people who believe in objectivity and science. Because Schiit products so far have measured like well.... shit; doesn't mean that this is a "crusade" of any kind or that anyone here is "making it personal".

The reality is that if they were interested in improving they could reach out to people like Amir and actually listen to the free advice that is being given to them.
 

Sal1950

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FWIW, here is the picture of the first round of testing:
Now I'm worried. Looks like you've taken what had the possibility of being a beautiful room and turned it into a disastrous
mess.
I'm not sure how I can balance that against trust in your measurements any more. :rolleyes:

Obviously too many dacs in one place. Too many extension cords. Yiggy is perfect. Your methods are flawed.
You might be right
I anxiously await a post from Mr Stoddard or Moffat with measurements and descriptions of where Amir has run astray and made the grievous errors that show the Schiit products in such a bad light. I know their posts will not be censored or banned here.

Looks like I'll be keeping my lowly Emotiva DC-1 for quiet a while longer.
It doesn't do DSD or MQA either.
 

Jimster480

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@amirm Any chance you could overlay the Yggdrasil test data with the Topping D30 and/or the JDS OL DAC or ODAC?
Since Yggdrasil tested for 16 bits I imagine it might be somewhat close to those other mentioned DAC's?
Also I think you may have tested a Modi (non multibit) and maybe you could overlay those too....

I don't want to ask for too much here but I think it would give people a good perspective for those who are on the fence about what the measurements mean
 

Wombat

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they won't respond to emails, I have emailed them about the issues with my USB interface with the Fulla2 before and they full on blamed it on my PC despite whatever emails I sent them.
This is after they replaced my "defective" unit with a "new" unit and the "new" unit had exactly the same problems.

My posting abilities at headfi were revoked after I found the SMSL xUSB and posted about it around the forum. Especially to people asking for a USB->SPDIF converter... because I wasn't recommending the Schiit product my posts kept getting deleted. When people would reply with the Eitr and I told them that the xUSB could do the same thing... my posts were edited or deleted again with warnings from mods that my information cannot be backed up and that I haven't purchased both units to test side by side. Because apparently if you recommend something that isn't a schiit product there needs to be proof that it works with measurements that say that it does the same thing??????? Honestly it made no sense to me and within a few days of recommending it in 5 different threads or so my posting abilities in every thread I had mentioned it in were removed.
There was a guy from ARK Audio who posted in the Magni 3 thread and asked Jason (or whoever was manning that thread) about the voltage numbers in Magni 3 and said that the voltage of their wall wart didn't allow for the voltage they were claiming in output unless they had multiplied the voltage several times over which could cause instability or something along those lines.
They were quick to erase his posts and say that he shouldn't be posting technical information in the thread.

So if you post technical information about schiit products = you are banned from the thread
If you post recommendations to non-schiit products = your posts are deleted and you are later banned from the thread for not providing measurements

They even deleted posts of mine recommending the D30 or M8 in several threads when people were asking about DACs at $250 or less because I said they were better than mimby in my experiences.
My posts were removed for "no conclusive evidence to prove that these DAC's are better than Modi Multibit"... so once again recommending a non-schiit product requires evidence. Recommending a schiit product based on nothing at all but subjectivity = Expected behavior.
As I developed a following on the forum and became more well known they were curating my posts every single day based on me making recommendations for anything people asked me about. In the mrspeakers Aeon thread some people were writing about how the Fulla 2 doesn't work well with the Aeon and the soundstage sounds compressed (I also tested this and found it to sound very poor and sometimes experience a buzzing noise). When I referenced these posts to someone who had an Aeon and was looking at a Fulla 2... my post was deleted and the posts I referenced were also deleted. Someone else responded telling him the Fulla 2 is great... which then sparked a discussion because many people in the thread said specifically not to get it for the Aeon... now I understand that the thread got a bit off topic but within hours they deleted all the posts again except the post telling the guy that the Fulla 2 was great for the reason of "offtopic posts".

So with all that being said... I wouldn't expect anyone from Schiit to ever try to talk to someone with measurements because they themselves know that their business is a scam. They are intentionally ripping people off with the idea that they can just force their products to have good reviews by removing all objectivity and poor reviews from all threads. Another tactic they use is when a poor review is posted or someone is dissatisfied there will randomly be a few "regular posters" who will start talking about random songs they like to listen to in the thread and fill up 2 pages of offtopic nonsense (which ofcourse won't be cleaned up by the mods even if reported) so that anyone checking the thread will have to scroll back a few pages to see someones dissatisfaction.


Heretic. ;)
 

Jimster480

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I totally disagree -- a measurement is not a measurement. One can lie with measurements easily by careful omission of facts or settings that are wrong for the type of measurement the instrument is doing, or with a poorly chosen instrument for the job. It's like lying with statistics.

That said, I don't think @amirm 's measurements are intentionally in error. But the discrepancy is going to drive me nuts for a while.
No I think you are just a Schiit fanboy and your posts in this thread have just been specifically defending them since the first post went up. You are lowkey trying to undermine the measurements aswell as tell people they don't hold weight.
As Amir and others have said it is upto the company to prove the measurements wrong or explain why they are so bad.
It is not anyone elses job here to do Schiit's job, and if customers are mad (and they certainly have a legitimate reason to be considering the measurements) then it isn't your place to go off telling people that they shouldn't be mad and that the measurements don't really stand for anything.
Because that is exactly what you are trying to do.
 

Jimster480

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Now I'm worried. Looks like you've taken what had the possibility of being a beautiful room and turned it into a disastrous
mess.
I'm not sure how I can balance that against trust in your measurements any more. :rolleyes:


You might be right
I anxiously await a post from Mr Stoddard or Moffat with measurements and descriptions of where Amir has run astray and made the grievous errors that show the Schiit products in such a bad light. I know their posts will not be censored or banned here.

Looks like I'll be keeping my lowly Emotiva DC-1 for quiet a while longer.
It doesn't do DSD or MQA either.
Yes exactly, I bet that all the DAC's in the room are causing interference that only Yggdrasil can be affected by and that's why the measurements don't stack up.
Also I'm sure Amir didn't burn the DAC's in for 5000 hours each using only specifically crafted multbit tones, so that could be a factor too. xD
 

garbulky

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You can create a thread if you like :)
You're right. My apologies for the off topic post!
When I got a mimby at first I let it run for days in order to compare its sound that is "supposed to get better in time".
I listened to it for a couple days and thought that my music sounded worse, after a couple days it seemed like it got better. So I swapped back to my other DAC at the time (Topping D30) and the D30 instantly sounded better. So I left the Mimby on for the rest of the week, kept listening to my D30 and listened to the Mimby again at the end of the week..... It still sounded bad, but actually now it sounded worse.
So the rule here goes back to you not being able to trust your ears because they will hear what they are accustomed to hearing. Listening to inferior quality sound for a couple days made it sound more acceptable to me until I was introduced to the better sound again.
I was alot newer to the audio world back then, but the artifacts in music played back by Mimby were very apparent especially in the classical pieces I was listening to.

Don't believe multi day subjective nonsense about things sounding better, they are just hoping you will train your brain to like their crappy sound so you don't return it.
I've only had the chance to listen to the Gungnir MB. I liked it. It did sound different to me (subjectively). But it simply didn't represent a big enough jump for me to put it on my upgrade list from the DC-1. Another major thing was a lack of remote control. My sound system is in a family area and everybody has to use it with multiple digital sources so a remote for input switching is important. Those tiny symbols that represented inputs were barely visible. Overall, I don't think it was the right DAC for me. Who knows maybe the Yggy will be.
 

drconopoima

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By the way, why would it have any merit a warm-up period argument? Most electronics perform their best at lower temperatures and go up the scale degrading their performance slowly when they become hot. Is there something I ignore that make it different for DACs?
 

naayel ehan

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Apologies, but common sense often seems to go out the window in the world of hifi. The whole rationale of this forum is based on evidence and not hifi/audiophile folkelore. It doesnt help when manufacturers indulge in the BS, whether due to cynical marketing or genuine lack of knowledge, understanding or plain eccentricity. Its difficult for Joe average to differentiate and not get cought up in it.
I agree, I'm that Joe that forked hard earned dollar on Bitfrost MB. I didn't come to this forum sooner. I was hoping for some magic multibit thing, none of it yet, may be it will never come. The only reason to register on this forum is to say thanks to @amirm, it is always good thing to have more data to make decision, even buying DAC. So thank you for the effort, @amirm, presenting the data.

And for audiophile out there, have you guys visited ENT specialist lately to check the ear, and have ear check test, like testing ear response to 20Hz - 20kHz? The older we get the less sensitive to high frequency. You will be surprise, that may be you can't hear anything above 15 kHz. :) if you 're still good at 20Hz - 20kHz you can start all argument about subjective-ism.
 

Jimster480

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By the way, why would it have any merit a warm-up period argument? Most electronics perform their best at lower temperatures and go up the scale degrading their performance slowly when they become hot. Is there something I ignore that make it different for DACs?
The only idea is that multibit DAC's have a specific limited range of operating temperatures due to the way they operate, and therefore waiting for them to "warm up" to their specific temp will yield the best results in terms of accuracy. But "warm up" periods shouldn't take more than a few minutes at best on any modern electronics.
 

Jimster480

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You're right. My apologies for the off topic post!

I've only had the chance to listen to the Gungnir MB. I liked it. It did sound different to me (subjectively). But it simply didn't represent a big enough jump for me to put it on my upgrade list from the DC-1. Another major thing was a lack of remote control. My sound system is in a family area and everybody has to use it with multiple digital sources so a remote for input switching is important. Those tiny symbols that represented inputs were barely visible. Overall, I don't think it was the right DAC for me. Who knows maybe the Yggy will be.
Yggy is the same as Gungnir according to your qualms... so why would it be different and why would you pay $2400 for 16 bit performance?

Buy a DX7 as it has a remote and all the possible inputs.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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I was hoping what was promising to be a interesting thread would be more civil. It's just a big pile on. Yikes.
Yes, such a friendly conversation. I have had friendlier conversations at a KKK meeting! And I am a black rabbi! :)
 

naayel ehan

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Yes exactly, I bet that all the DAC's in the room are causing interference that only Yggdrasil can be affected by and that's why the measurements don't stack up.
Also I'm sure Amir didn't burn the DAC's in for 5000 hours each using only specifically crafted multbit tones, so that could be a factor too. xD

Or may be you can sue them on Judge Judy show, and force them, Schiit, to produce measurement to put end to this debacle? Worth a shot and 5 minutes of fame, and I will be downloading from torrent.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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Very entertaining tests. Just a clarification, the retest was done at the same location, later in the day?
 

drconopoima

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Yes, such a friendly conversation. I have had friendlier conversations at a KKK meeting! And I am a black rabbi! :)
Well, it's a conversation going on, something that would be impossible on HeadFi because you would be banned from posting in the thread after mentioning measurements, competitors' products, subjectively preferring other products, the validity of the subjective assessment of sound, linking to other blogs, having a signature with other blogs in them, potentially providing people enough tools to Google and discover other blogs,... I'm probably just half-way in summarizing the reasons why HeadFi bans users.
 

garbulky

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Yggy is the same as Gungnir according to your qualms... so why would it be different and why would you pay $2400 for 16 bit performance?

Buy a DX7 as it has a remote and all the possible inputs.
I haven't heard the DX7 which I believe uses dual saber chips. The few Saber units I've heard, I didn't care for including the Oppo 205 which uses a similar chip as the DX7. Just my personal preference there.

The yggy uses a different higher spec'd DAC chip than the Gungnir MB and it's architecture is a bit different. Hence my interest. I wonder if it will satisfy me.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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He’s just trying to make sense of the results here in the context of his own expirences and expectations. I think we should applaud those who come here, those with maybe different mind sets but want to consider what we are doing anyway..

They want to consider us the least we can do is consider them in return.
King Solomon you have returned!
 
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