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Measurements and Review of Schiit Yggdrasil DAC

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drconopoima

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#42
I wouldn't buy a tv that took 3 days to display the correct color balance. Correct. I turn my tv on and off when not in use.
if I thought it sounded good, I'd have no problem buying it if it took 3 days to sound its best. I would plan to leave it on the whole time.
Hey, you have already changed the goal post. What makes it ok to leave a DAC on all the time but makes it necessary turning on and off a TV? Imagine the TVs image was superb after a 3-day warmup. Why wouldn't you leave it on? Most LED TVs nowadays use 45 Watt or less when turned on. The Power Consumption of the Yggdrasil DAC is 35 W. I find it very comparable numbers, and if the logic applies to one of them, then the same logic applies to both.
 

stunta

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#43
I just read the manual for Schiit Yggdrasil and there is no mention of requirement for warm up let alone 72 hours of it. So my measurements are compliant with manufacturer's instructions.
Case closed.
 
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amirm

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Thread Starter #44
Ouch! Including the "what a long strange journey" thread? Sorry to hear.
Yes, both of them. Jason told me to to go Mike's thread and instantly banned me from his thread. I got a few words in very politely in Mike's thread before he banned me (and deleted my last post). They are absolutely in no mood to be questioned negatively about anything they do even in the most professional way.
 

garbulky

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#45
Hey, you have already changed the goal post. What makes it ok to leave a DAC on all the time but makes it necessary turning on and off a TV? Imagine the TVs image was superb after a 3-day warmup. Why wouldn't you leave it on? Most LED TVs nowadays use 45 Watt or less when turned on. The Power Consumption of the Yggdrasil DAC is 35 W. I find it very comparable numbers, and if the logic applies to one of them, then the same logic applies to both.
If that's so, then I suggest leaving your tv on. I'll continue to turn mine off. But no I haven't changed the goal post. There wasn't a goal in the first place!
 
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amirm

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Thread Starter #46
Hey, you have already changed the goal post. What makes it ok to leave a DAC on all the time but makes it necessary turning on and off a TV? Imagine the TVs image was superb after a 3-day warmup. Why wouldn't you leave it on? Most LED TVs nowadays use 45 Watt or less when turned on. The Power Consumption of the Yggdrasil DAC is 35 W. I find it very comparable numbers, and if the logic applies to one of them, then the same logic applies to both.
Let's be fair to him. There are not thousands of people saying to leave TVs on for better picture but there are plenty of subjectivists who do say you have to leave audio gear on forever.
 
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#47
I remeasured the Schiit BiFrost Multibit after leaving it on overnight. It made no difference in measurements: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...t-bifrost-multibit-dac.2319/page-5#post-63652

I just read the manual for Schiit Yggdrasil and there is no mention of requirement for warm up let alone 72 hours of it. So my measurements are compliant with manufacturer's instructions.

I have a Schiit Modi Multibit that I purchased. I am happy to test it and retest it after 72 hours. I am confident it won't show any difference but will test. :)
FWIW...the Mimby doesn't need that long according to Mike's response below...

estreeter said:

What happened to the mandatory 72-hour stabilisation phase for multibit DACs or does that only apply to the Yggy ??? Purrin and Mike were very upfront about this, and it gels with my own experience with other DACs - straight out the box, I dont expect magic from anything.

baldr said:

Two factors: One is that it takes 32x less time to stabilize to 16 bit rather than 21 bit levels. The second is that things heat up much faster in a teeny box.
 

drconopoima

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#48
If that's so, then I suggest leaving your tv on. I'll continue to turn mine off. But no I haven't changed the goal post.
I wouldn't suggest that leaving a 35W device turned on all the time is an acceptable engineering/design compromise, so I am consistently turning off both my DACs and my TVs. You are not, so you need to justify what makes it different for DACs than it is for TVs.
 

garbulky

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#49
Let's be fair to him. There are not thousands of people saying to leave TVs on for better picture but there are plenty of subjectivists who do say you have to leave audio gear on forever.
I leave most of my gear on. But I can't leave my XPA-1 gen 2 on simply due to it having huge amounts of power consumption in class A mode. I found the Gungnir to sound better after a week (subjective impression). But that wasn't why I was asking you about it. I don't use the Gungnir MB, I use a DC-1. I asked you because of Mike's reccomendation. I appreciate you retaking measurements within your ability.
 

Purité Audio

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#50
Is there also a recommended ‘burn-in’ period, if so are we certain that particulat unit was ‘burnt in’!
Keith
 
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amirm

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Thread Starter #51
Two factors: One is that it takes 32x less time to stabilize to 16 bit rather than 21 bit levels. The second is that things heat up much faster in a teeny box.
Well, that is folklore. Such a statement needs to be backed by measurements and data and not just throwing numbers out.

There is no data for example on the internal components changing in temp up to 72 hours.

He is just throwing stuff out there to explain away negative remarks about the sound of the product: "oh, you didn't let it warm up for 72 hours? That is the reason for it not sounding good."

It is his data and information that is suspect, not what we are presenting.
 

Cosmik

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#52
I think you'll also find that you need to be listening to the device for much of the burn-in time because of the well-known scientific observer effect:
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect

The quantum particles only align properly when they know they're being observed.
 

March Audio

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#53
What if you did? Also, would you be wearing a jacket in this situation? Or a fur coat?

You make assumptions and use labels.
I wouldn't buy a tv that took 3 days to display the correct color balance. Correct. I turn my tv on and off when not in use.
Were you trying to relate that to the Yggy DAC? Cuz it's not a tv. Because if I thought it sounded good, I'd have no problem buying it if it took 3 days to sound its best. I would plan to leave it on the whole time.
I don't make assumptions. It's your and the manufacturers statements that say the product is not thermally stable in the normal way that a comparable product is.

Omg. The TV is an analogy. Clearly appropriate to demonstrate the bizarre attitude some have with hifi electronics, that it doesn't conform to the normal standards and performance of any other electronic domestic product.

Hifi electronics is special ;)

Btw my background is instrumentation, test and measurement and calibration. I am fully aware of electronic thermal stability issues found at the extreme performance end of things like frequency standards. None of which is relevant in a domestic audio dac.
 
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Wombat

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#55
I think you'll also find that you need to be listening to the device for much of the burn-in time because of the well-known scientific observer effect:
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect

The quantum particles only align properly when they know they're being observed.

Imagine the anticipation effect after waiting 72 hours to play with the new toy. o_O
 
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#56
Here's a thought...instead of all this wailing and gnashing of teeth over comparing measurements, why not establish guidelines for what measurement levels are acceptable (i.e. the threshold of auditability) for the measurements being posted along with what can be expected sonically when gear doesn't 'measure up'...apologies if it's been done and in another thread.

Doing this would add value to a DAC purchaser's decision process...if they care about such things; some will, some won't.

Don't get me wrong, I see value in publishing measurements. However, I find myself looking at these charts and saying..."OK, but what does it mean to me? What should I expect the actual sound (i.e. listening) difference to be when the THD+N is so different between the Yggy (-61 [email protected] Hz) and the DX7 ([email protected] Hz) and the E32 (-110 [email protected] Hz)?

For instance, "shown the door as compared to the Topping DX7 and Exasound E32" is a great turn of phrase but something that describes the expected (and confirmed) sonic character differences of the bass/midrange/treble of the Yggy, DX7 & E32 through some reference level headphones or speakers would be much more useful...imo.
 
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DonH56

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#57
Glad my career was mainly high-speed high-rel military and space qual stuff. Warm-up in ms was normal and the bloody thing had better be stable and meet all the performance specs from that time on no matter what temperature or anything else did. Pilots get vexed when they have to wait a few minutes for the radar to warm up when there's an incoming missile, picky little twits... :) Virtually every product, military or commercial, I have designed had to meet spec out of the box and measured at 1 second or 1 year had better work. and it wasn't that big a deal because the techniques for building stable designs are well-known and have been for decades. But of course we weren't listening to it so maybe there were big changes we simply missed.

There are some oscillators and such that have long warm-up times, like an hour, but the only thing I recall needing 24 hours was some precision test equipment for -160 dBc or lower noise and fs jitter that spec'd 24 hours for the internal oscillators to stabilize. I have had tube audio circuits drift over a few hours, though one of those I reduced to minutes by building a better bias circuit and regulating B+. I simply cannot imagine what happens in a modern SS audio circuit to require 72 hours of warm-up and make a significant audible difference. I read about burn-in and warm-up requirements all the time but have not seen any measured data to support the claims, especially the ones claiming significant changes in sound after 100+ hours of burn-in. At some level I am sure I could measure changes, but also bet I could measure microscopic (inaudible) changes minute-to-minute and year-to-year. Anticipation and expectation bias is a powerful sales tool.

Ears of clay, that's me - Don
 
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Candlesticks

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#58
Here's a thought...instead of all this wailing and gnashing of teeth over comparing measurements, why not establish guidelines for what measurement levels are acceptable (i.e. the threshold of auditability) for the measurements being posted along with what can be expected sonically when gear doesn't 'measure up'...apologies if it's been done and in another thread.

Doing this would add value to a DAC purchaser's decision process...if they care about such things; some will, some won't.

Don't get me wrong, I see value in publishing measurements. However, I find myself looking at these charts and saying..."OK, but what does it mean to me? What should I expect the actual sound (i.e. listening) difference to be when the THD+N is so different between the Yggy (-61 [email protected] Hz) and the DX7 ([email protected] Hz) and the E32 (-110 [email protected] Hz)?

For instance, "shown the door as compared to the Topping DX7 and Exasound E32" is a great turn of phrase but something that describes the sonic character differences of the bass/midrange/treble of the Yggy, DX7 & E32 through some reference level headphones or speakers would be much more useful...imo.
How about you stop posting crap. If we want to talk about audibility thresholds we can talk in the price range of less than a $100. If you want to talk about audible difference you blind ABX test. What we shouldn't do is let stupid people dictate audibility thresholds to justify shit measurements of a DAC that costs thousands of dollars. It is worth nobodies time. If you believe in magic pixy multibit goodness there is NOTHING in these measurements that will be of any interest to you. So stop wasting everyones time.

If you buy a $2000 DAC you do not care about VALUE as correlated by MEASUREMENTS. Now quit your concern trolling.
 
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garbulky

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#59
I was hoping what was promising to be a interesting thread would be more civil. It's just a big pile on. Yikes.
 
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#60
Well, that is folklore. Such a statement needs to be backed by measurements and data and not just throwing numbers out.

There is no data for example on the internal components changing in temp up to 72 hours.

He is just throwing stuff out there to explain away negative remarks about the sound of the product: "oh, you didn't let it warm up for 72 hours? That is the reason for it not sounding good."

It is his data and information that is suspect, not what we are presenting.
Thanks, Amirm. I have no dog in that fight...merely presented what Mike said. As stated, it's easy to show that the measurements haven't changed for the Yggy after 72 hours, and for the Mimby, it seems the thermal equilibrium time is a tad north of 2 hours...making the measurement task somewhat easier...all for the good...yes?

To my way of thinking, Mike 'throwing stuff out there' regarding a time-shift of 72 hours really doesn't buy him anything. Surely people are capable of leaving a device on for 72 hours prior to measuring it! :) In fact, if they measure it at 0 hours and then 72 hours...AND the measurements don't change, then Mike has the potential to look pretty foolish...especially if the tests can be replicated by others.

FWIW, the concept of an audio manufacturer having to back their 'folklore' by measurements and data is noble but not required...except by those individuals that deem it so for their buying criteria.
 
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