Measurements and Review of Schiit Yggdrasil DAC

[drconopoima]

Thanks, Amirm. I have no dog in that fight...merely presented what Mike said. As stated, it's easy to show that the measurements haven't changed for the Yggy after 72 hours, and for the Mimby, it seems the thermal equilibrium time is a tad north of 2 hours...making the measurement task somewhat easier...all for the good...yes?

That was already done, the Bifrost didn't change in measurements in that review after overnight warmup (that's way more than the 2-hour period)

 

[amirm]

To my way of thinking, Mike 'throwing stuff out there' regarding a time-shift of 72 hours really doesn't buy him anything. Surely people are capable of leaving a device on for 72 hours prior to measuring it!

That is not an objection to measurements. It is an objection to subjective listening. By having the person re-listen later with the pre-conditioning that 72 hours fixes things they up the odds that the person will have a different/better subjective impression.

I keep hearing Mike is an engineer. Therefore instrumentation needs to be his friend. He should come with boatload of data.

 

[FrivolsListener]

Yes, both of them. Jason told me to to go Mike's thread and instantly banned me from his thread. I got a few words in very politely in Mike's thread before he banned me (and deleted my last post). They are absolutely in no mood to be questioned negatively about anything they do even in the most professional way.

As I said in the other thread, he doesn't do that, but you are best taking it up with him by PM. I would strongly not recommend posting your entire review in his thread or in your email, though. I'd put money on the banning coming from mods, not him.

 

[Purité Audio]

I think there are still interesting aspects, how does one become so enamoured of a design or manufacturer, is a particular type or personality susceptible.
I understand the manufacturer defending the product, but just a user?
Keith

 

[amirm]

I was hoping what was promising to be a interesting thread would be more civil. It's just a big pile on. Yikes.

My apologies. Folks please be cordial and remember there are many of us and it can look like we are ganging up on new members.

 

[amirm]

As I said in the other thread, he doesn't do that, but you are best taking it up with him by PM. I would strongly not recommend posting your entire review in his thread or in your email, though. I'd put money on the banning coming from mods, not him.

I don't have any interest in reaching out to him anymore. It is not my job to go grovelling to him. He knows where to find me here. If he has any interest he should come and converse with me here in public or private. If he lacks such motivation then I sure as heck not going to be more motivated than he is.

 

[Wombat]

It does get tedious revisiting old ground with some new members to the same effect.

 

[FrivolsListener]

I don't have any interest in reaching out to him anymore. It is not my job to go grovelling to him. He knows where to find me here. If he has any interest he should come and converse with me here in public or private. If he lacks such motivation then I sure as heck not going to be more motivated than he is.

I don't think it's groveling to ask him what's up.

Likewise, I don't think you should email him your entire review, prepended with a question mark. I know that many engineers, including myself, have crappy interpersonal skills. It took me 55 years to learn mine. If you can say that I've learned at all.

Diplomacy, sir, diplomacy. One doesn't have to go in like a rock thrown through a window!

 

[amirm]

It does get tedious revisiting old ground with some new members to the same effect.

I understand that. It is hard for new members to instantly realize what we are about. If longer term they still act the same way sure, we can circle the wagons on them.

 

[Candlesticks]

It does get tedious revisiting old ground with some new members to the same effect.

The one thing that runs through high end audio is massive insecurity. To sound good in their minds is not enough and so an ADC must validate their purchase as well.

 

[FrivolsListener]

Yes, both of them. Jason told me to to go Mike's thread and instantly banned me from his thread. I got a few words in very politely in Mike's thread before he banned me (and deleted my last post). They are absolutely in no mood to be questioned negatively about anything they do even in the most professional way.

You "replied" with the entire review. It felt like a threadjack, to be blunt.

 

[garbulky]

I don't have any interest in reaching out to him anymore. It is not my job to go grovelling to him. He knows where to find me here. If he has any interest he should come and converse with me here in public or private. If he lacks such motivation then I sure as heck not going to be more motivated than he is.

They are very censorship happy over there. Jason posted a chapter and in it he mentioned a 25 watt class A amp. I mentioned that I liked it and that I had an XPA-1 gen 2 which did 60 watts in class A. It was immediately deleted. And the response was something along the lines of just one spec doesn't tell the whole story. Which I found unusual. So I said, the reason I mentioned it was the only thing we know about this class A amp is that it does x number of watts in class A. Then I was asked why I was talking about an amp that may be vaporware anyway. Very confusing. That was what the chapter was about! So I bowed out.

I think they or at least Jason take their online presence seriously and don't want any kind of competition mentioned.
I completely understand why @amirm won't pursue the conversation. They don't really want to talk to him. But if you did, Schiit has an official email that they are "supposed" to respond to very fast. And I mention that because they don't have a phone line. Everything is done through that email.
Though they have mentioned they won't respond to things that aren't worth their time. So they may not respond either.

 

[FrivolsListener]

I was hoping what was promising to be a interesting thread would be more civil. It's just a big pile on. Yikes.

THIS, GODDAMMIT!

 

[Wombat]

I understand that. It is hard for new members to instantly realize what we are about. If longer term they still act the same way sure, we can circle the wagons on them.

I would advise newbies to familiarise themselves with the ethos of this forum before challenging it.

 

[amirm]

Diplomacy, sir, diplomacy. One doesn't have to go in like a rock thrown through a window!

That is exactly what they did to me, in two threads!

I spent a lifetime (more than 35 years) in his shoes working at technology companies having products reviewed. Even when dealing with the nastiest, most biased reviewers, we always took the high road and catered to every need they had. Never in a million years call them derogatory names (like Mike did by saying I am the "NW guy with Japanese wedding picture"), or banning people from conversation, etc. He has this completely backward. Cleary he has no training or experience in how to handle difficult situations like this.

My charter and goal is to get data to audiophiles out there. My reviews do that and I am done. It is his job from here on to figure out if the story continues or ends here. I honestly don't understand this point of view that I have to go and seek him out. For what? If he has data to counter mine, he should post them. If he doesn't, then that is that. There is really nothing else to talk about.

 

[amirm]

You "replied" with the entire review. It felt like a threadjack, to be blunt.

Not at all. I did not post a fraction of the review there. The only part being discussed there was the glitching. Indeed tons more issues were in my review here that never got much light on them there.

And remember interest was created by my review from a number of members so it is not like I arrived there and started to post.

Regardless, you do not treat a reviewer that way no matter what the cause. You reach out to him in private and explain things to him. You don't call him names, delete his posts, get him banned, etc.

You do what he does if you don't care. And if that is the case, let's not keep trying to get the two of us married. He doesn't care about my views there and I don't care about his just the same. I am here to evaluate his products that either I have bought or customers have. And like to know objectively what they do.

 

[March Audio]

I was hoping what was promising to be a interesting thread would be more civil. It's just a big pile on. Yikes.

Apologies, but common sense often seems to go out the window in the world of hifi. The whole rationale of this forum is based on evidence and not hifi/audiophile folkelore. It doesnt help when manufacturers indulge in the BS, whether due to cynical marketing or genuine lack of knowledge, understanding or plain eccentricity. Its difficult for Joe average to differentiate and not get cought up in it.

 

[GearMe]

How about you stop posting crap. If we want to talk about audibility thresholds we can talk in the price range of less than a $100. If you want to talk about audible difference you blind ABX test. What we shouldn't do is let stupid people dictate audibility thresholds to justify shit measurements of a DAC that costs thousands of dollars. It is worth nobodies time. If you believe in magic pixy multibit goodness there is NOTHING in these measurements that will be of any interest to you. So stop wasting everyones time.

If you buy a $2000 DAC you do not care about VALUE as correlated by MEASUREMENTS. Now quit your concern trolling.

Hmmm... Well done, sir! Nothing better than a logical reply!

I'm not trolling but have clearly struck a nerve. Apparently you haven't followed my posts very well...anger can cloud a person's ability to comprehend.

I've already stated on the Bifrost thread (which you participate on) that a properly run DBT is a far better way to compare equipment. In fact, I also suggested that I doubted that the people participating in a DBT for DACs that measure reasonably well would be able to tell the differences between them. In response to my statement about DBTs, Amirm replied that the DBTs he's been involved with regarding DACs have essentially proven that DACs pretty much sound the same...which seems reasonable to me.

The point being that if a given DAC is 1 billion times better in a measurement, it doesn't matter if humans can't discern it. Actually, though, these measurements do interest me...to the degree that they can help me determine what I can expect from a DAC if doesn't measure well in a particular area -- hence my question regarding THD+N.

Not sure where the 'magic pixy dust multibit goodness' thing came from as I haven't extolled the virtues of MB whatsoever in this forum (again refer to any of my posts).

At least, we can agree on one thing though, buying a $2000 DAC is not a value based purchase for me and apparently for you as well. That said, I'd bet that there are long-standing members in this thread that have purchased DAC's for that and above.

 

[GearMe]

That was already done, the Bifrost didn't change in measurements in that review after overnight warmup (that's way more than the 2-hour period)

Good to know...thanks for a civil, reasoned reply! BTW, I wasn't expecting the results to be any different.

 

[FrivolsListener]

That is exactly what they did to me, in two threads!

I spent a lifetime (more than 35 years) in his shows working at technology companies having products reviewed. Even when dealing with the nastiest, most biased reviewers, we always took the high road and catered to every need they had. Never in a million years call them derogatory names (like Mike did by saying I am the "NW guy with Japanese wedding picture"), or banning people from conversation, etc. He has this completely backward. Cleary he has no training or experience in how to handle difficult situations like this.

My charter and goal is to get data to audiophiles out there. My reviews do that and I am done. It is his job from here on to figure out if the story continues or ends here. I honestly don't understand this point of view that I have to go and seek him out. For what? If he has data to counter mine, he should post them. If he doesn't, then that is that. There is really nothing else to talk about.

That was hardly an insult that Mike gave you. You posted your entire review, once in Jason's thread, and once in Mike's thread. At head-fi, if you want to start a discussion, you start a thread. Not a difficult concept. Also, at head-fi, they kill references to other sites. They don't tell me why, it just is how they do things. It's their site; I'm not paying for it.

Just as I took a look at how things worked around here before posting a single comment, I don't think it would have been too much for you to get the feel for the place over there.

If I were in your shoes, I would have done something like,

Hey, @Baldr, I run a site dedicated to quantifiable measurements. I took a look at your Bifrost MB DAC, and saw several disturbing things, including spurs up and down the spectrum around a single-tone test, and surprisingly low resolution. I'd like to talk to you about it. Jude doesn't want links to other sites, how can we do this? I'm looking for information, not for a fight.​

Again, that's how I would have done it. But I also told Jason directly that he was thin-skinned, in a diplomatic way (using the words, "thin-skinned", with examples).

Um, you'll know when Mike insults you. He has a very colorful way with words. It would probably involve expletives, questions about your ancestry, species of origin, and level of intellect. But I digress...

Bottom line: You did the same thing, twice, with all the diplomacy of a thrown rock. I'm sorry you are banned over there -- they and we are poorer for it. I don't think it was Mike. I think it was a head-fi mod or site owner. But you sir, if you weren't before, are now carrying a large chip on your shoulder about them.

Not that you care, but as I stated in the Bifrost thread, I plan on buying a DAC you recommend and spending some quality time with it. If I blew my money on Schiit that was unwarranted, I'll move on -- life's too short to get wound up in regrets.