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Measurements and Review of Schiit Yggdrasil DAC

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For someone who is more impressed by documentation than credentials, should you be knocking a little harder on the "company in question"' door to provide their own test reults for their product?



There is a fine line between a poor design and a design compromise. Either one can be justified by the designer, who seems to be in no mood to get involved in such explanation.
Yet you believe it's fair to ask.
Go ahead, no one here is holding you back :) Worse thing that can happen is you'll end up banned from HF as well.
If it makes you feel more comfortable to know I have asked questions of Schiit and other manufactures in the past. I ask Amir questions here because I thought it to be the most likely place he would respond. I will add that Emotiva has been the most responsive company so far to the kinds of questions I tend to ask.
 

garbulky

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Thanks for your post. I appreciate the points within. Two comments:

1. I am not hearing criticism from anyone genuinely interested in additional information. Every comment comes from people with obvious angst about the data as presented. Without fail, none have explained what the additional data would do to improve what is presented. Nor can they cite any precedence for such documentation. Indeed many happily accepted other measurements lacking such (e.g. calibration certs).

2. I don't get paid for any of this. :) Seriously this is a hobby for me. I like measuring gear and seeing how they perform. Writing a dissertation, taking extra pictures to resize, upload, etc. is just busy work that takes away the fun and importantly, time that I have that I can put toward testing more gear.

I already created that thread on understanding audio measurements and put fair amount of work in it. Despite that, the people who demanded such, still are making more demands. While I am committed to improving that write-up, I am just not seeing that as a good use of my time, or value to readers.

Folks can always ask me for additional data in my measurement and review threads and I am always willing to perform them. I was asked for example for warm-up testing and I did that for Bifrost. You want me to tell you when I measured the device? Just ask.

So it is not like people can't ask questions and get answered. I am just objecting to rewarding their PR attempts to diffuse data by creating work for myself. How about them going and doing something useful like asking manufacturers to publish measurements?
Well that's understandable. You are after all the one doing all this hard work. We are just sitting back and armchair commenting. However, since this is a science forum, I think it would be appropriate to have more detail. I can see why you don't want to do that. But it would quell some of the people with doubts.

The reason others don't get asked for it is that they aren't really talking about things that are "not right". Take Bob's comments on sbaf, most of them say "oh this is really great better than its specs." Nobody is really interested other than going yay. That's why your Toppings review doesn't get these setup questions comments.
But when we have a measurement saying that things don't meet specs, that's when the questions come about setup.
 

Dismayed

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You are again taking my words out of context needlessly in a conversation that could have easily been done as soon as we agreed that I am not your target audience. I was very specific with you over on head-fi and you did not respond. Here you have been a bit better but strangely defensive given that my questions are not difficult to either answer or simply state that it is not something that you believe to be interesting to your target audience.
It's a simple question that Amir asked. Why do you constantly evade answering? Oh, well. I haven't found a single one of your posts enlightening, so I'll add you to my ignore list.
 
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RayDunzl

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But when we have a measurement saying that things don't meet specs, that's when the questions come about setup.
It raises questions about the device in my mind.
 

Wombat

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Absolutely. But that what the 'Ignore' feature is for. I'm happy to engage with the majority of people here because their opinions are grounded in reality.
The ignore feature makes for disjointed threads. That is why I prefer not to use it.
 
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The reason others don't get asked for it is that they aren't really talking about things that are "not right". Take Bob's comments on sbaf, most of them say "oh this is really great better than its specs." Nobody is really interested other than going yay. That's why your Toppings review doesn't get these setup questions comments.
But when we have a measurement saying that things don't meet specs, that's when the questions come about setup.
Yes, and that's an obvious demonstration of human bias, and major subjectivity when it comes to what to criticize/accept. Most people have no problem accepting measurements if they show a device they love performing well. If they don't, then oh it can't possibly be the device itself, it must be something else... and they're going to keep trying to pick it apart and invalidate the source of dissonance in their minds.

This also demonstrates inflexibility when it comes to altering a previous perception based on new knowledge. I've owned Schiit products, and I'm fully open to an explanation of why these results are flawed, but I've yet to hear one... not to mention the inconsistency of Schiit's responses, other measurements that show the same thing, and the general behavior of people opposing these results, paints a pretty clear picture I think.
 
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Dismayed

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The ignore feature makes for disjointed threads. That is why I prefer not to use it.
It's the comments that uninformed people make that creates disjointed threads. This way I'm only dealing with the many rational beings on this forum.
 

Wombat

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they put a 50 0hm bnc connector on that 2k dac? :rolleyes::rolleyes:o_O:eek: LOL
What is wrong with that? Most audio interconnects are 50 or 75 ohm impedance.
 

amirm

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Wombat

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Welcome to the forum. I will need to start checking for this!
75 ohm is usually specified for low signal-power transmission applications.

50 ohm for higher signal-power transmission power or long run applications.

The connecters are cross-pluggable and in typical domestic hifi set-ups you won't hear a difference.
 
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Let me address this since we are being stereotyped as being all about measurements. If you look more broadly in this forum, you will see extensive discussions of audio science, acoustics, audio theory, etc. So we are about totality of audio science and engineering.

On the specifics of my measurements, they for the most part indicate engineering excellence or lack thereof. Where appropriate I have and continue to make comments about audibility. Many times I dismiss the visual differences as not being audible differences. No one should jump to the conclusion that the measurements indicate audible superiority by the scores seen in the graphs. For good or bad, we are really, really bad at hearing these unfamiliar distortions no matter how much we think otherwise.

In the context of this review, please take a look at frequency response error in the upgraded analog board. It shows a 1 dB drop at low frequencies. I cited research that shows that is audible and is an audible problem. That is a case of graphs matching audible differences. Schiit needs to take immediate action to investigate this problem. They need to measure their own boards, reach out to that owner, etc. to figure out what is going on.
Yes! Schiit needs to look at what there boards are doing and make amends with their customers, at least those inquire about it. Otherwise, they will go from being "da Schiit" to just shit.
 

Don Hills

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Yeah. What Wombat said. For domestic audio use, it doesn't matter at all. The cables are too short and the frequencies too low for connector impedance differences to matter.
(In my youth, I was adept at using an oscilloscope for TDR to find faults in building wide coax systems. It was all 62 ohm impedance, something I haven't seen for a long time...)
 

Wombat

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Yes and it’s our responsibility to present the best face of rational ( objective) thought in our approach to Audio ( that’s one of the founding principles of this forum by the way) . I will deal with the disingenuous trolls but on the whole the recent influx of new members posting are here out of their own curiosity. They still might struggle with the way we do things but I don’t mind that, I will deal with any circular argument dynamic that might occur.

You can’t moan so many are irrational easily lead etc in Audio then chase away the few that take a intrest in what we are doing. You want audiophiles to embrace a more rational objective view , dial down the hostility and give people a chance.
I did say some. Not generalising. o_O
 

Wombat

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Well indicates the forum is getting noticed. Whether it continues to convince or not there is the chance.
Sometimes a dose of salts may be in order. :p
 

March Audio

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Well it should be 75 ohm for SPDIF. Apparently some units had 75 ohm BNCs and some ended up with 50 ohm BNCs. Such attention to detail seems par for the course when it comes to Schiit.
Really? OMG an apprentice EE would know better, what a bunch of amateurs (thats code for wankers BTW).
 

fat0n3s

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Any dac that doesnt reach 99.9999% of its potential performance within an hour is a poorly designed product. It is NOT a virtue to take longer. It just means the design is thermally unstable and just another feature to criticise.

Not that I think the performance of this dac takes 72 hours to stabalize. Thats just audiophile bs.
You should try to get your hands on a yggdrasil and see for yourself. After owning one for 2 years I can say that it sounds drastically different after being left on for a week.

If I listen to my warmed up yggdrasil, turn it off for a few hours, turn it on and listen to it again, the sound becomes very muddy. It continues to sound muddy for about 3 days until it warms up again. It sounds its best after being left on for a week.

It's not audiophile BS. Anyone would be able to hear the difference.

I would like to see tests done on a yggdrasil that has been turned off for 24 hours, then tests done on that same dac after it's been turned on for a week. I believe music should be played through the dac for at least 10 minutes directly before testing.

If the tests do not show any difference between cold and warm yggdrasil, then I'll know computer testing in general is somehow flawed.
 

March Audio

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You should try to get your hands on a yggdrasil and see for yourself. After owning one for 2 years I can say that it sounds drastically different after being left on for a week.

If I listen to my warmed up yggdrasil, turn it off for a few hours, turn it on and listen to it again, the sound becomes very muddy. It continues to sound muddy for about 3 days until it warms up again. It sounds its best after being left on for a week.

It's not audiophile BS. Anyone would be able to hear the difference.

I would like to see tests done on a yggdrasil that has been turned off for 24 hours, then tests done on that same dac after it's been turned on for a week. I believe music should be played through the dac for at least 10 minutes directly before testing.

If the tests do not show any difference between cold and warm yggdrasil, then I'll know computer testing in general is somehow flawed.

But dont you understand that even if this really is the case that it is simply indication of shit performance? Who wants a DAC thats thermally unstable? Who wants a DAC that doesnt perform properly for 3 days? What a load of rubbish the design is in that case.

So do you really expect us to take your sighted uncontrolled subjective opinion as an indication that the measurements are flawed? Really? BTW I think you'll find Amir has done this thing and the measurements problems found with the dac dont change over time.

This Schitt debacle is honestly pure comedy. I guess most of it comes from people being invested in the products they have bought and really, well feeling a bit foolish for getting it wrong.
 
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