Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[antcollinet]

Just get one of the cheap DACs with high SINAD and compare. If your amp is starte of the art you should be able to hear the difference

Seems unlikely.

The Weiss measures as transparent for pretty much all real world listening.

 

[testp]

first thing is very simple, our brains are organic, brain chemistry gives us different complex varities of pleasures, if we ask confirmation from our brain between sighted A/B unit testing, we already are biased bc of somekind of chemistry happening between those unit preferences to us and different moments in time, (even blind A/B testing can vary)
so many blind tests need to be made.

second add more variables: if two systems sound really different, then either:
1. A/B are not equally configured to Default AND correctly Level-matched, OR
2. one or both of those is not doing what it is supposed to do in "All Things Off" setting <- but this will be measurable !

 

[welwynnick]

..... the science-based position at ASR is that properly implemented amplifiers (incl Purifi) operating within their intended operating range should not sound different.

I fully agree with the scientific principles of ASR, but I don't think it's the forum's position that ALL properly implemented amplifiers operating within their intended operating range should sound the same. Properly implemented DACs, pre-amps and Purifi amplifiers - PERHAPS - but ALL amplifiers don't necessarily sound the same.

It depends where you draw the line at transparency. Some people would have us believe that the line sits around 40dB SINAD. Some say 60, or 80 or 100 or even 116dB. I don't know what the answer to that is. I'd really like to know, and I think it's something that ASR doesn't address very well.

Having said all that, I completely agree it would be very difficult indeed to compare such high performing amps at a show. I like HiFi shows, but each room is different, the partnering equipment is different and the music is usually different. I think the best information to compare those amps is probably here at ASR.

 

[Doodski]

It depends where you draw the line at transparency. Some people would have us believe that the line sits around 40dB SINAD. Some say 60, or 80 or 100 or even 116dB. I don't know what the answer to that is. I'd really like to know

It not just the SINAD. It is also the output Z of the amp and the current drive capability. I have heard I am guessing because there are so many ~500 Asian made amps all in sound rooms where I could compare them and they where virtually identical other than max power output variations. There was a couple of amps that really stood out and they where exotics that where colored. There was a couple that where bad and they where Sanyo STK IC amp designs. I'm not sure where SINAD draws the line either. I don't really worry about it too too much and instead focus on linearity of power output which indicates the output Z and the total power output.

 

[DVDdoug]

I agree that as listening is a useless experiment. There are too many variables and amplifier specs/performance are one of the most insignificant variables. (Except for amplifier power).

It depends where you draw the line at transparency. Some people would have us believe that the line sits around 40dB SINAD. Some say 60, or 80 or 100 or even 116dB. I don't know what the answer to that is. I'd really like to know, and I think it's something that ASR doesn't address very well.

I'm NOT an expert, but it's not "line". It depends on the nature of the noise & distortion, and their relationship to the signal. The audibility of the noise from an amplifier & speakers also depends on ambient room noise. And of course it depends on the listener.

Amir is "conservative", and he's also a trained listener. If he says something is transparent, I believe him!

...There's a computer that I use at work for some electronic testing. It's a very OLD computer with a built-in speaker and no soundcard. It makes some beeps when the test passes, fails, or when it's done, etc. It's surprising how some other noise in the space masks (drowns out) the beeps, when that "background" noise doesn't seem to be very loud.

If you're not familiar with decibels, here's an "educational experiment" with Audacity. (In case you don't already know, Audacity is a free-open source audio editor).

- Open a file adjust the volume "comfortably loud", or as loud as you want to go.

- Run Audacity's Amplify effect set to -10 or -20dB to get attenuation instead of amplification.

- Keep repeating that, lowering the volume in 10 or 20dB steps, and by the time you're down to around -60dB. You might be surprised how quiet -60dB is. You might just be hearing analog noise, if you hear anything at all. And you can keep-on going until you don't hear any signal at all.



You can also try masking experiments by mixing-in spoken voice or white or pink noise with music. You can try that at different levels and if you mix it in at -40dB you'll probably only hear the noise when the signal is weak or silent. I don't know of an easy way to create a known amount of harmonic distortion but the Audacity Limiter effect can be set to clip and you can clip -3dB or -6dB off of the peaks, etc. (And I'm sure you can research how much harmonic distortion that creates.)

 

[jkess114]

I picked converters after listening to converters. This is what audio engineers do if they can, which is getting easier for people to do these days. What is considered the best DAC/ADC on audiosciencereview?

 

[Lieglein]

What is considered the best DAC/ADC on audiosciencereview?

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/best-roon-core-balanced-dac-review-png.351810/

 

[Basic Channel]

(Good measurements don't mean good sound )

I managed to the end! It's a bit like a parody at points. I was going to go to the Chinese for lunch but suddenly feel like some spaghetti sauce.

 

[Lieglein]

I picked converters after listening to converters. This is what audio engineers do if they can

This is pretty odd when an engineer relies on his senses to choose technical devices.

 

[jkess114]

When calibrating tape machines I use specs and some test gear, when evaluating audio gear I use my ears. If something doesn't sound right, out comes the o-scope and test brain. When designing gear in the past, ABX testing and an AP2500 come out.

 

[jkess114]

This is pretty odd when an engineer relies on his senses to choose technical devices.

I do not know a single professional audio engineer who picked converters based on test results shown at the beginning of the first page. Further, 99% of the top working mastering engineers are mastering in the analog domain, which means extra converter stages. Specs alone say that should be a detriment to audio, yet for many who's means of putting food on the table is audio, they have chosen a more complicated, time consuming and expensive way of getting the job done because it sounds better to them.

 

[Newman]

Further, 99% of the top working mastering engineers are mastering in the analog domain, which means extra converter stages.

Are you suggesting that DAWs are used by less than 1% of ‘top working mastering engineers’?

 

[jkess114]

Are you suggesting that DAWs are used by less than 1% of ‘top working mastering engineers’?

No. 100% of top quality mastering engineers are using DAWs. I am saying 99% of the top end mastering engineers are sending audio into the analog domain via a DAC, processing the audio in the analog domain, capturing that via an ADC and finishing up the mastering digitally. It has been this way for a long time. I know of one high-end professional mastering engineer that is all in the box.

 

[voodooless]

Making and producing music != reproducing it

Two different worlds. The only thing they have in common is that they are both full of nonsense.

 

[jkess114]

Making and producing music != reproducing it

Two different worlds. The only thing they have in common is that they are both full of nonsense.

What do you mean?

 

[antcollinet]

No. 100% of top quality mastering engineers are using DAWs. I am saying 99% of the top end mastering engineers are sending audio into the analog domain via a DAC, processing the audio in the analog domain, capturing that via an ADC and finishing up the mastering digitally. It has been this way for a long time. I know of one high-end professional mastering engineer that is all in the box.

1 - Why on earth are they doing that?
2 - What then are they using the DAW for?

 

[allmanfan]

if measurements were the holy grail it would be very easy ..everybody would simply produce the same product and the only thing that would differ would be the look and feel of the product...obviously this makes no sense...

 

[Blumlein 88]

No. 100% of top quality mastering engineers are using DAWs. I am saying 99% of the top end mastering engineers are sending audio into the analog domain via a DAC, processing the audio in the analog domain, capturing that via an ADC and finishing up the mastering digitally. It has been this way for a long time. I know of one high-end professional mastering engineer that is all in the box.

Many reasons this would be the case having little to nothing to do with sound. If your big money client sees you using a rare big money analog outboard process they will be impressed. If they see you using a few hundred dollars in plug ins on a pc they might think, " hey we could do that ourselves. "

 

[Tell]

Measurements are showing exactly what they are showing and I believe in them fully. There is no better way to review technology.
What I don't believe though is that no one will ever need stuff with a 120dB SINAD and everything else measuring just as perfect. Those "Excellent", "Very good/good", "Fair" and "Poor" levels that Amir is using are quite exaggerated since the audible levels for us humans even in the best conditions ain't that good. Nudge everything down a step and put a "Godlike" over that "Excellent" and it'll be closer to the truth imo.
I mean I do see people that seems to be are scared of DACs that have a SINAD under say 100dB thinking they will sound bad which in my eyes is almost as bad as believing in pure subjectivist reviews from Darko, WhatHifi or Steve Guttenberg.

 

[jkess114]

Many reasons this would be the case having little to nothing to do with sound. If your big money client sees you using a rare big money analog outboard process they will be impressed. If they see you using a few hundred dollars in plug ins on a pc they might think, " hey we could do that ourselves. "

This is not why. I was a mastering engineer.