Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[voodooless]

The same ol story, told over again,

It’s like Groundhog Day over here

 

[HarmonicTHD]

It’s like Groundhog Day over here

Or whac a mole. ;-)

 

[Ken1951]

Or whac a mole. ;-)

More like Whac-a-troll!

 

[Newman]

Fake

 

[GM3]

Yes, I should hope so. I'd accept measurement differences in lieu of a blind test.

Measurements are hard though! Tedious...

My first attempt at capturing the difference:

Amp comparison by in room measurements. Advice? Conclusion?

To briefly sum things up, got a new Fosi V3 amp to replace a 40lbs pro amp, "clean power is clean power", yadayadayada, heard differences, this being ASR, measurements. So goal of this thread being whether or not we can conclude anything about the amps in these set of measurements. (mostly in...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'll definitely make a second attempt, though it'll probably be in a few days... But IMHO, I'm quite confident that there were significant (audible) differences, and they did show up in the measurements, although there were more variations in the mids than I would have liked... And those mid variations didn't seem to be super stable between different attempts; so while it's logical that moving the mic and speakers around will affect the FR, the 1st set of measurements (amp 1 vs amp 2), seemed to fit closer together.

But for some reason, take #2 and #3 showed more variations in mids... It might be a trait of the blocked port; the speakers as per original design measurements showed 3.3 Ohms min, so ~4 Ohms average, but that might hurt the V3 more than the QSC. What's strange, most seem to believe that this isn't possible. And that for some reason the V3 MUST SOUND EXACTLY like the QSC, which isn't the case. (as per my imperfect measurements, and imperfect ears/brain..) lol

Anyway, lots of great ideas/recommendations from the linked thread, I'll have to dig deeper maybe if I can next few days or weekend!

 

[III-V]

Measurements are critical, your eyes and ears will lie to you.

You can of course manipulate data to make it look more appealing than it may be, or only measure certain regions to hide flaws, and this can be done purposefully or accidentally. There can be measurement error, operator error and uncertainty. The limits of the test equipment must be well understood, be in good calibration, and one must be able to identify good data from bad data. All of this is easier said than done.

But good, accurate measurements are foundational.

 

[SIY]

your eyes and ears will lie to you.

No, they tell the truth. Your brain is the liar.

 

[Balrog]

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with:

1. Measurements are not everything.

2. You all never listen.

3. I trust my ears, not graphs.

4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music.

5. You all must not listen to music at all.

6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear?

7. I have heard your best SINAD gear and they sound terrible. I don't like any of this Chinese stuff.

8. You don't trust your ears. I/we do.

9. All these reviewers/youtubers/audophiles say these amps, DACs, etc. sound different and you say they don't. They can't all be wrong.

10. Surely designers have created certain house sound for each equipment which your measurements don't show.

11. Your measurements are only at one frequency. You need to also measure X, Y and Z like impulse response, slew rate, etc., etc.

12. You guys run a cult here where you only go by measurements and no one is allowed to disagree.

On and on...

I have had to answer these so many times that I thought it is time to stop having them go into every review as they are not product specific. From here on, any such questions should be posted here. Answers will be given in this thread and simply referenced in future challenges in other threads.

@AdamG247 and @BDWoody, please direct any future posts in review threads to here and not allow discussions there.

Thanks. You all are free to discuss this topic, provide answers, argue, whatever, in this thread.

Measurements can explain why. Genelec 1031A's are 'notorious' for listener fatigue. Turns out that the tweeter shows distortion at the very top end and the midrange crossover overlaps more than 'it should'. Measurements also can be used to snake oil the ignorant or poorly trained. OTOH, measurements are only part of the picture. War plans and speakers never survive the first encounter with the enemy/installation. What's on your walls?

 

[blanc]

Hi,

I notice nearly all the DAC reviews by Amirm are objective including characteristic curves and parameters, but there are very few hearing experiences. Where can I find such reviews on SMSL and Topping DACs?

 

[TonyJZX]

Hi,

I notice nearly all the DAC reviews by Amirm are objective including characteristic curves and parameters, but there are very few hearing experiences. Where can I find such reviews on SMSL and Topping DACs?

everywhere else on the internet

 

[Purité Audio]

Almost impossible not to stumble over them .
Keith

 

[TonyJZX]

one might ask where can i find Amir's long lost brother who used to work at Apple who also does objective testing?

 

[xaviescacs]

Hi,

I notice nearly all the DAC reviews by Amirm are objective including characteristic curves and parameters, but there are very few hearing experiences. Where can I find such reviews on SMSL and Topping DACs?

The main consensus here, as you will read in many threads on this forum, is that differences between DACs are hardly in the audible range. Only the very worst of them are able to produce levels of noise and/or distortion to be audible by a non-trained ear in normal conditions. Hence, there is no point in listening to a DAC, as you won't be able to differentiate them in a controlled test in the vast majority of cases.

Furthermore, one can legitimately argue that we only hear sound, not electrical signals, so there is no way to listen to the sound produced by a DAC without the intervention of other devices (amplifiers, transducers, etc.) that would by definition make that listening test highly biased, and as a consequence meaningless.

My two cents on the question.

 

[TonyJZX]

i think there's been enough testing here of enough dacs to work out that something like the $69 SU-1 pretty much does the same work as something in the $150-$250 plus range or more... if you focus on the audibility part.

I think we're at the stage where most of us will not pass a blind test with an SU-1 and one of its biggest brothers at 10x the price.

 

[fpitas]

everywhere else on the internet

I'm sure you can find any "result" you like, too. Probably depending on how much the reviewer makes on the review.

 

[TonyJZX]

even here you will find some people say the SU-1 is 'harsh' 'fatiguing' and even has that havana syndrome

you will find reviewers are sometimes skewed by price and their expectations on the visuals of a dac

if something looks like an SU-1 you will go in with some expectations

if something looks like a Chord Dave or a dCS Bartok then you will also go into with some expectations of a different kind

 

[Dunring]

The reviews of DACs are just opinion, their personal hearing, and whatever they were drinking/smoking that evening. I've got a room full of high end DACs and even the filters on them make such a subtle change. The only really audible difference is the SMSL ones that have both filters and color settings like the M300 with the AK4497 chip in it, or DO200 or more recent ones in that price range. For ones with just filters, I've given up trying to volume match and tell them apart, it's all features and connectivity now. It's probably the most expensive lesson to learn in the audio hobby, aside from buying cables which can be priced crazy.

 

[Ricardus]

Measurements can explain why. Genelec 1031A's are 'notorious' for listener fatigue. Turns out that the tweeter shows distortion at the very top end and the midrange crossover overlaps more than 'it should'. Measurements also can be used to snake oil the ignorant or poorly trained. OTOH, measurements are only part of the picture. War plans and speakers never survive the first encounter with the enemy/installation. What's on your walls?

Citation needed.

I've mixed on 1031a's for 15 years or more, and had not felt any more fatigued from them or any other monitor.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

If it helps, a review of my Qutest.
Highs, beyond belief. Lows, the same. Soundstage wider than the Pacific. Sound stage depth deeper than that Ocean trench!
And , oh those mids!!! I could go on! Shall I?
In conclusion, the finest DAC known to mankind, at any price.
Hopefully, as subjective as you'll ever need.
Enjoy!

 

[Noske]

@blanc Sandu at soundnews.net provides comprehensive opinions. You may have to have a couple days free to wade through all the words.