Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Blumlein 88]

They have a number of calculators.

System Performance Calculations

Will my audio system produce audible noise? Will my audio system produce audible distortion? How will my audio components work together as a system? How loud will my audio system play? Use Benchmark's online audio calculators to find answers! If we know the output power of an amplifier, as well...

benchmarkmedia.com

Looks like this was just put on their site this month. I'll look at some of them.

 

[solid12345]

What defines 'musicality' in audio reproduction ?
What technical parameters represent/influence 'musicality'?

Same definition as accuracy, there really is no such thing frankly for both. The only way to hear an accurate reproduction is to hear the album coming out of the same speakers & equipment it was recorded on.…or taking it even further to have been in the same room as the band hearing them play it in that moment of time. Everything else is just a close-enough reproduction.

 

[antcollinet]

Same definition as accuracy, there really is no such thing frankly for both. The only way to hear an accurate reproduction is to hear the album coming out of the same speakers & equipment it was recorded on.…or taking it even further to have been in the same room as the band hearing them play it in that moment of time. Everything else is just a close-enough reproduction.

Of course there is a definition of accuracy - what goes in is what comes out. We don't measure accuracy against what the recording engineer heard in his studio, we measure it against what he put in the recording.

 

[solderdude]

Same definition as accuracy, there really is no such thing frankly for both. The only way to hear an accurate reproduction is to hear the album coming out of the same speakers & equipment it was recorded on.…or taking it even further to have been in the same room as the band hearing them play it in that moment of time. Everything else is just a close-enough reproduction.

I still have not heard what aspects define 'musicality' and is not definable.
Accuracy is just 'accurate'. As in a good reproduction of the recorded waveforms (L and R). It has nothing to do with how close the recording was to the actual end product (the recording). It is only the recording that can be reproduced accurately. This is well defined. Musicality is not defined at all. What IS musicality ? How can equipment be musical ?

 

[Nkam]

-different packaging/format
-still original

interesting.
those have a quite low slew rate.

wonder if that’s why it sounds a bit warm.

 

[Axo1989]

I still have not heard what aspects define 'musicality' and is not definable.
Accuracy is just 'accurate'. As in a good reproduction of the recorded waveforms (L and R). It has nothing to do with how close the recording was to the actual end product (the recording). It is only the recording that can be reproduced accurately. This is well defined. Musicality is not defined at all. What IS musicality ? How can equipment be musical ?

I'd wager it's musical if music comes out after you turn it on. The tricky part is "more" musical.

 

[Blumlein 88]

View attachment 273775On On benchmark site I have found a calculator of audibility of THD+N. I put my values in calculator and I got such result. My question is if my background noise is 37 dB SPL it means that level of audible THD+N which is 33 dB SPL will be masked by background noise ?

Well, a few things. One is distortion of loudspeakers is not included in this calculator. The other is it appears to mostly ignore noise levels which actually is fine. With 35 db spl noise typically pinkish in nature in our most sensitive region of 3-5 khz the noise floor in that area is near 0 db SPL if you look in terms of ERB units. Few speakers will be -60 db in that range. Almost none will be better than that. What info we have is -60 db is more than enough for music. -40db distortion is probably fine with very nearly all music.

 

[IAtaman]

I still have not heard what aspects define 'musicality' and is not definable.
How can equipment be musical ?

Musical is another word for pleasent isn't it, a pleasent sound like a musical instrument would produce, with its own signature harmonics, as opposed to a single sine wave. I always thought when people said musical they were referring to a some sort of harmonic non linearity.

 

[solderdude]

That's an example. There is no clear definition of 'musical' and it can be whatever one associates with it.
Euphonic sound, warmth to the sound (coloration), compressed sound (so you hear decay longer), definitely not bass-shy and/or bright / analytic.
When a recording is well made and the reproduction system is 'transparent' it should sound 'musical', the same system might not be found to be 'musical' on a lot of pop recordings though but sound 'digital/bright/cold' but that's the recording.
In this case the system is 'musical' on some recordings but not on all recordings.
Elevated bass and treble might be preferred by a lot of people. They could consider that musical or more musical.
Regardless where the coloration comes from (transducers, output impedance, BW limiting on extremes, room effects) so if musical (maybe even PRaT = makes someone toe-tapping without doing this on purpose ?) can be caused by several (tone changing) aspects and may well include a strong bias such as: room lighting, alcohol, time of day, knowing there is or seeing tube glow, comfy feeling.

So in that case the question is what aspect makes a system musical or more musical and can people that prefer 'accuracy' not find their system musical.
What technical parameters are responsible and how to define it ? Is it the same for all people or preference ?

The term 'musical' is too vague and one cannot put a finger on it what aspect(s) make something sound more enjoyable/pleasant/musical.

 

[antcollinet]

Musical is another word for pleasent isn't it, a pleasent sound like a musical instrument would produce, with its own signature harmonics, as opposed to a single sine wave. I always thought when people said musical they were referring to a some sort of harmonic non linearity.

So - High THD? Low SINAD? Or some particular form of distortion? Even if the latter, in order to be universally audible the distortion would have to be pretty high (say 40dB SINAD or worse)

Musical in that case would be the opposite of Accurate.


Personally I want the musical instruments and voices to be musical (sort of the definition right there). I don't want my reproduction equipment trying to change that in some way. A Dac or an Amp is not supposed to be a musical instrument.

 

[PatF]

The term 'musical' is too vague and one cannot put a finger on it what aspect(s) make something sound more enjoyable/pleasant/musical.

For me when someone is telling me that some system is musical it means only that he liked it in terms of overall balanced and cohesive sound reproduction. As you said term "musical" is very vague and highly subjective.

People have their own preferences which sometimes are against equipment which measures well . For me is is nothing wrong until they try to convince others that it is proper way.

 

[IAtaman]

Personally I want the musical instruments and voices to be musical (sort of the definition right there). I don't want my reproduction equipment trying to change that in some way. A Dac or an Amp is not supposed to be a musical instrument.

What is the best case THD+N of your transducers? I dont mean the drivers, I mean the speakers, headphones, IEMs you use to listen.

 

[antcollinet]

What is the best case THD+N of your transducers? I dont mean the drivers, I mean the speakers, headphones, IEMs you use to listen.

Much worse than the amps and dacs. (though they generally don't add much N )

I still don't want the dacs or amps adding any distortion. Whether or not someone wants to call it musical.

 

[IAtaman]

Much worse than the amps and dacs. (though they generally don't add much N )

I still don't want the dacs or amps adding any distortion. Whether or not someone wants to call it musical.

No one said you do. I for one did not say I want my DAC or amp to color my music either. That is an argument you are having with yourself because you got triggered by the word musical. I just wanted to highlight the fact that your reproduction system is changing the music you listen to in some way or other.

On the topic of N, loudspeakers and dynamic transducers can generate IMD, which is not harmonic, and are generally classified in the N of THD+N. How would you classify them?

 

[antcollinet]

No one said you do. I for one did not say I want my DAC or amp to color my music either. That is an argument you are having with yourself because you got triggered by the word musical. I just wanted to highlight the fact that your reproduction system is changing the music you listen to in some way or other.

On the topic of N, loudspeakers and dynamic transducers can generate IMD, which is not harmonic, and generally classified in the N of THD+N. How would you classify them?

Triggered?** I thought we were just having a discussion.

Still, you do you.


(**Triggered used as here is one of the more obnoxious uses of a word to emerge recently, initially from the alt right. Not only is it universally used as a put down, but it's use in this context trivialises the suffering of those who have genuine PTSD - Its use will intantly end any conversation I am involved in.)

 

[fpitas]

Triggered?** I thought we were just having a discussion.

Still, you do you.


(**Triggered used as here is one of the more obnoxious uses of a word to emerge recently, initially from the alt right. Not only is it universally used as a put down, but it's use in this context trivialises the suffering of those who have genuine PTSD - Its use will intantly end any conversation I am involved in.)

Agreed. Those of us without true trauma are lucky in that we simply get annoyed, or even angry. Just say that.

 

[IAtaman]

Triggered?** I thought we were just having a discussion.

Still, you do you.


(Triggered is one of the more obnoxious uses of a word to emerge recently, initially from the alt right. Not only is it universally used as a put down, but it's use in this context trivialises the suffering of those who have genuine PTSD - Its use will intantly end any conversation I am involved in.)

That is such a cheap shot. But, In any case, for the better, I also think it is for the best not to continue this discussion.

 

[IAtaman]

Agreed. Those of us without true trauma are lucky in that we simply get annoyed, or even angry. Just say that.

You see, one very common behavior one sees a lot on the internet is for people to throw an accusation in the middle to make the other person look insensitive, crude or unfavorable in some other way, and try to force them to explain and defend themselves; that they did not mean to be offensive to anyone who is not a party to the conversation, despite the fact that there was no reason to think they did so in the first place. That behavior is called bullying. I don't think the intention of tonnycollinet was to bully me but yours I am not so sure about.

 

[BDWoody]

Let's move on please.

 

[antcollinet]

You see, one very common beahviour one sees a lot on the internet is someone to throw an accusation in the middle to make the other party look insensitive or unfavourable is some other way, and force them to try and explain and defend themselves that they did not mean to be offensive to anyone who is not party to the conversation, despite the fact that there was no reason to think they did so in the first place. That behavior is called bullying. I don't think the intention of tonnycollinet was to bully me but yours I am not so sure about.

My explanation was definatly not intended as such. I included it to make anyone reading aware of the reasons I react badly to the word, and perhaps to give people the chance to consider the language they use. I realise it has become common parlance - my opinion is it shouldn't have, and I view it as discriminatory - like ablist language being used as a putdown.

No hard feelings.