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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

tvrgeek

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Have you eeasured the damn things? If you need to EQ them several dB’s, it should be very obvious from measurements.
YOU REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. SOME DACS HAVE A SPECIFIC GRATING/GLARE/EDGE OR SOMETHING THAT I CAN REDUCE BY REDUCING 3100. THESE ALL MEASURE RULER FLAT UNLESS YOU THINK AMIRM IS LYINIG. I DON'T. THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT OBVUOUS IN THE MEASUREMENTS THAT HIGHLIGHTS OR MASKS THIS PROBLEM. The question is what, and can we measure it.
 

voodooless

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THESE ALL MEASURE RULER FLAT UNLESS YOU THINK AMIRM IS LYINIG.
I’m well aware of Amir’s measurements. But did you measure your specific devices? Who knows, one of them might be broken?
THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT OBVUOUS IN THE MEASUREMENTS THAT HIGHLIGHTS OR MASKS THIS PROBLEM. The question is what, and can we measure it.
You want to measure something, then start with the most obvious and most defining parameter: frequency response. If you build amps and speakers, that should be simple enough.
 

Xulonn

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YOU REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. SOME DACS HAVE A SPECIFIC GRATING/GLARE/EDGE OR SOMETHING THAT I CAN REDUCE BY REDUCING 3100. THESE ALL MEASURE RULER FLAT UNLESS YOU THINK AMIRM IS LYINIG. I DON'T. THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT OBVUOUS IN THE MEASUREMENTS THAT HIGHLIGHTS OR MASKS THIS PROBLEM. The question is what, and can we measure it.
That and your previous posts are over-simplified claims which are not very astute from a scientific perspective. Rather, they are classic and stereotypical subjectivist claims - as to a more science-oriented call for further investigation to confirm/verify or dispove. Claims reported by a single audiophile who is subject to multiple biases are not verified truths.

Unless this supposedly audible artifact can be confirmed in a proper and robust double blind testing with multiple listeners - and also with those same DACs inserted into other sets of components, it is still a "possible" audio anomaly
 

pkane

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I wonder if our digital analysis can determine phase relationship with the harmonics. If so, recorded sounds would be such a mess already it would not matter logically.

Let's think. Someone out there may have the epiphany we are all waiting for

What epiphany are you looking for? There are, of course, plenty of digital/mathematical tools for analyzing phase relationships, even in the most complex of signals.
 

Blumlein 88

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YOU REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. SOME DACS HAVE A SPECIFIC GRATING/GLARE/EDGE OR SOMETHING THAT I CAN REDUCE BY REDUCING 3100. THESE ALL MEASURE RULER FLAT UNLESS YOU THINK AMIRM IS LYINIG. I DON'T. THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT OBVUOUS IN THE MEASUREMENTS THAT HIGHLIGHTS OR MASKS THIS PROBLEM. The question is what, and can we measure it.
Do you think they only manifest themselves with music? You can use Deltawave to see differences between DACs and it would easily show a difference that takes a few dbs of EQ to alter to your taste.

What you haven't done is convince us you can hear these glare problems when you don't know which DAC you are listening to. It certainly would seem odd 3100 is where the trouble is with multiple designs unless you have some sort of hearing defect right in that range making you sensitive to some odd small differences.
 

pkane

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YOU REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. SOME DACS HAVE A SPECIFIC GRATING/GLARE/EDGE OR SOMETHING THAT I CAN REDUCE BY REDUCING 3100. THESE ALL MEASURE RULER FLAT UNLESS YOU THINK AMIRM IS LYINIG. I DON'T. THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT OBVUOUS IN THE MEASUREMENTS THAT HIGHLIGHTS OR MASKS THIS PROBLEM. The question is what, and can we measure it.

The starting point is not what measurement are we missing, but rather what might you be failing to control in your testing that's not related to actual sound reproduction.

Start with measuring your own hearing. Then, double-check that what you think you're hearing isn't created between the ears. Check that you've removed all other possible confounding influences. Then, if you can still tell the difference, you may have a case to start looking for something new to measure.

(EDIT: I see @Blumlein 88 beat me to it)
 

Pdxwayne

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YOU REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. SOME DACS HAVE A SPECIFIC GRATING/GLARE/EDGE OR SOMETHING THAT I CAN REDUCE BY REDUCING 3100. THESE ALL MEASURE RULER FLAT UNLESS YOU THINK AMIRM IS LYINIG. I DON'T. THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT OBVUOUS IN THE MEASUREMENTS THAT HIGHLIGHTS OR MASKS THIS PROBLEM. The question is what, and can we measure it.

Did you voltage match the DAC first before listening for differences?
 

pkane

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Seems it is difficult getting a few basic concepts through a few skulls here. Back several posts: What can we measure, or interpret what we have measured that indicated what we will hear, or preferably not hear.
You seem to have difficulty in this department. Same as in PA5 thread, you appear to be unable to state succinctly and clearly what you mean. The quoted text above, I'm afraid, clarifies nothing.
 

acetogen

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YOU REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. SOME DACS HAVE A SPECIFIC GRATING/GLARE/EDGE OR SOMETHING THAT I CAN REDUCE BY REDUCING 3100. THESE ALL MEASURE RULER FLAT UNLESS YOU THINK AMIRM IS LYINIG. I DON'T. THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT OBVUOUS IN THE MEASUREMENTS THAT HIGHLIGHTS OR MASKS THIS PROBLEM. The question is what, and can we measure it.
I am commenting on this and not on the previous comments you made. The whole point of objectivism is that instruments of measurement don't lie, so your questioning of @Amir is pointless. Two of them might have a bias, which is easily testable by various labs comparing the AP5555 to other types of instruments. It could perfectly be the case that a feature in 2 of your N number of DACS is not measured by the tests performed here, and other sites. Have you done your online research? If I were you I would find someone to do measurements of the units you have and report them here. If they are recent purchases you might have gotten 2 lemons that can be traded by the sellers.
 

RoyB

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Helpful?...Yes Everything?...NO In the last two years I've bought 6 items based on measurement reviews.....I've sent back four of them because they just sounded terrible. I'm currently blown away by two pieces of equipment that measure terrible (or at least poor) but sound amazing...PASS LAB First Watt F5 v2 and Zero Zone tube preamplifier........ Go figure!

 

AdamG

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YOU REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. SOME DACS HAVE A SPECIFIC GRATING/GLARE/EDGE OR SOMETHING THAT I CAN REDUCE BY REDUCING 3100. THESE ALL MEASURE RULER FLAT UNLESS YOU THINK AMIRM IS LYINIG. I DON'T. THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT OBVUOUS IN THE MEASUREMENTS THAT HIGHLIGHTS OR MASKS THIS PROBLEM. The question is what, and can we measure it.
We don’t like Screamers here. So please hold it down to a mellow volume so we can still listen to our music. :cool:
 

Spkrdctr

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OK, here is what I really want to know. Is a Benchmark for 3K really that good? Is the C298 for a lot less just as good? Or a P225? Atoll AM100? Exposure 3100? Vidar? If one of these was truly better than my own, I would buy it. But even on the low end, $700 is a lot of money on my pension.
You are probably at the highest level you can achieve for your price range. Price is NOT a big factor in most systems. But, don't spend your pension money just to spend it. I am in the same boat. I don't have the money I used too. Unless something really big comes along that makes me say WOW! that is next generation Star Trek stuff then it is not worth upgrading. Most audio people, but not all of course get upgraditis. If affordable it is fine but don't stretch your money especially for a two channel system. IMHO a good surround system blows the doors off of a good 2 channel system. Even Gene over at Audioholics has realized that. It has been true for many years now. That's my opinion. It is worth a nickel. It was two cents but alas, inflation has struck us all!
 

AdamG

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Feeding the Carp. Those hungry bottom feeders eat up everything!
You have mistaken my post as feeding, when indeed it was a pleasantly presented Warning.
 

tvrgeek

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Adam, as any discussion of improving measurements and understanding is clearly not possible, might I suggest locking this thread
 

Blumlein 88

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Adam, as any discussion of improving measurements and understanding is clearly not possible, might I suggest locking this thread
You mean, "Adam, since I've not shown the ability to understand lock this thread."

If something genuinely changes the sound reaching your ears, then it must change the signal going to whatever transducers are in use. You claim to hear this glare problem that defies available measurements, but don't want to entertain looking at this in some additional ways nor seem to entertain the possibility your experience of glare isn't related to sound instead of other influences. You've been entrenched in this without cooperating to see if there is anything to it. Forgive the rest of the audio world for not assuming what you hear is definitively a physical phenomenon of sound.

Have you made even one suggestion on how to measure or what might need measuring? If so I missed it. How can you complain about improving measurements when you nor anyone has suggested any such improvement.
 

Sal1950

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In the last two years I've bought 6 items based on measurement reviews.....I've sent back four of them because they just sounded terrible.I'm currently blown away by two pieces of equipment that measure terrible (or at least poor) but sound amazing...PASS LAB First Watt F5 v2 and Zero Zone tube preamplifier........ Go figure!
Easy - peasy to figure.
You like the sound of distortion in poorly designed gear.
Your post made that obvious.
 
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