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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Mark84

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If you claimed it improved lap times by 30%, someone might challenge that.

Why should it different here?




To listen to music. Not to kid myself into believing I hear things.
Stop it… you guys are too much.. kidding myself into believing I hear things?
Drawing conclusions about someone because you think they fit a certain mould is an odhominem logical fallacy. I’m sure you, as a man of science, can see the pitfalls in that approach. No wonder this is such a hostile place. Anyone not touting the same rhetoric as the “objectivist” crowd is painted with the same brush. Sorry but it’s not that Simple. You have no idea what someone believes based on a few posts. Can I ask you what your main system is @BDWoody ? Out of interest?
 

BDWoody

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Stop it… you guys are too much.. kidding myself into believing I hear things?

Yes, that's the nature of bias. The brain is a wonderfully complicated thing, but it tends to fill in blanks in ways that are unique to us as individuals.

Have you seen our Host's video on listening tests? If not, it's worth a try.


You have no idea what someone believes based on a few posts.

I can tell if they recognize some fundamental limitations of the human condition.

I can also see when people don't care about the difference between claims and evidence.

Can I ask you what your main system is @BDWoody ? Out of interest?

Sure.

Main Theater: JBL 708Px3, JBL 705Px6.
1x HSU 10" sub.
1x Velodyne 12" sub

Office system:

Devialet Expert 200
Kef LS50's
Genelec 7261a Sub
 
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PatF

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Who bloody cares. If someone wants to spend a bit more on some crossover components for their pride and joy/ hobby, then so be it. It’s like you have to buy the cheapest stuff you can if there isn’t a measurement that shows a difference. I bought alloy wheels for my car but it makes no difference. I just like it better. I bought top quality Jantzen crossover parts because I wanted to be lavish with my expensive drivers. The end result is a pair of speakers with sound that beats anything I could even remotely afford out of a store. How do I know? Because I can hear it. Jeez. Hearing must count for something otherwise what’s the point. If you can’t trust your hearing that much why bother listening at all? Just look at your nicely measuring cheap parts and be happy. cheers.
There is a difference, Big difference between when you buy something or replace parts and say I have done it because I like it, want to have premium parts etc. and stating that the change has improved performance and can not prove it by objective means. I think no one here would challange statement: I change something because it is shinny or is made of higher quality material (which many times is not equal to better performance) and I like the change.
 

Mark84

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Yes, that's the nature of bias. The brain is a wonderfully complicated thing, but it tends to fill in blanks in ways that are unique to us as individuals.

Have you seen our Host's video on listening tests? If not, it's worth a try.




I can tell if they recognize some fundamental limitations of the human condition.



Sure.

Main Theater: JBL 708Px3, JBL 705Px6.
1x HSU 10" sub.
1x Velodyne 12" sub

Office system:

Devialet Expert 200
Kef LS50's
Genelec 7261a Sub
I am aware of the limitations of our hearing. I just don’t fall in the same camp as the purely measurement oriented folks, I just think it’s a bit militant. To think we know how to measure all aspects of hearing is a bit delusional. Science, and particularly human biology is complex. There are no measurements that give us any indication of wether we will like a particular speaker or not. Yet we make a choice. Why? Why do we make that choice? Pleasure. What is pleasure? A series of neurones firing to release a hormone that acts on receptors. All easily explained by science yet it results in the need for a subjective choice due to preference. I have 2 sets of speaker cables. Only two, and of relatively cheap price because I don’t believe that there are huge differences in cables. Just the makeup changing their specs. What I do know is that one set of cables sounds better when paired with my Naim Uniti Nova. The cheaper pair. The more expensive pair sound too bright after a while for some reason. I wanted the more expensive pair to sound better but they didn’t. That didn’t seem to fit with expectation bias. I will add that I can’t hear this with A/B comparison but only after hours of listening. Can we measure the difference in the cables? Yes obviously resistance, capacitance, inductance etc. Could you pinpoint what makes that one cable brighter? Maybe. But if you can, would I have been able to pick that in the measurements before buying? Probably not. Another subjective choice needed. Anyway my point is that after many years in the hobby and many speaker builds later… Yes I trust my ears to tell me some things but not others. Crossover components I do believe make a difference. But yes, I have to only believe at this point. But to me, it is a repeatable difference and I’m happy to pay for the parts on the very infrequent occasion that I build a pair of new speakers.
I can see that you are not 100% pro measurement choice yourself. I’m sure you understand that some things are chosen for other reasons such as features, functionality etc. Or simply that you enjoy the sound.
 

SIY

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I am aware of the limitations of our hearing. I just don’t fall in the same camp as the purely measurement oriented folks, I just think it’s a bit militant. To think we know how to measure all aspects of hearing is a bit delusional. Science, and particularly human biology is complex. There are no measurements that give us any indication of wether we will like a particular speaker or not. Yet we make a choice. Why? Why do we make that choice? Pleasure. What is pleasure? A series of neurones firing to release a hormone that acts on receptors. All easily explained by science yet it results in the need for a subjective choice due to preference. I have 2 sets of speaker cables. Only two, and of relatively cheap price because I don’t believe that there are huge differences in cables. Just the makeup changing their specs. What I do know is that one set of cables sounds better when paired with my Naim Uniti Nova. The cheaper pair. The more expensive pair sound too bright after a while for some reason. I wanted the more expensive pair to sound better but they didn’t. That didn’t seem to fit with expectation bias. I will add that I can’t hear this with A/B comparison but only after hours of listening. Can we measure the difference in the cables? Yes obviously resistance, capacitance, inductance etc. Could you pinpoint what makes that one cable brighter? Maybe. But if you can, would I have been able to pick that in the measurements before buying? Probably not. Another subjective choice needed. Anyway my point is that after many years in the hobby and many speaker builds later… Yes I trust my ears to tell me some things but not others. Crossover components I do believe make a difference. But yes, I have to only believe at this point. But to me, it is a repeatable difference and I’m happy to pay for the parts on the very infrequent occasion that I build a pair of new speakers.
I can see that you are not 100% pro measurement choice yourself. I’m sure you understand that some things are chosen for other reasons such as features, functionality etc. Or simply that you enjoy the sound.
The biggest strawman in this recycled bad argument pile is lumping in controlled listening tests with measurements.
 

voodooless

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There are no measurements that give us any indication of wether we will like a particular speaker or not. Yet we make a choice. Why? Why do we make that choice? Pleasure. What is pleasure?
We do have science that gives an indication of how on average a speaker will be liked by a listener: the preference score. It obviously tells you nothing about how you specifically will like a speaker, but if you sell the damn things, that doesn't matter ;) Is it perfect? Not at all, but it does give us a good perspective into what on average makes a speaker a good speaker. it gave loads of good pointers on what to design for.
I have 2 sets of speaker cables. Only two, and of relatively cheap price because I don’t believe that there are huge differences in cables. Just the makeup changing their specs. What I do know is that one set of cables sounds better when paired with my Naim Uniti Nova.
How do you know? You just listened to them? Well, that's not good enough. You'll need to prove you can hear the difference.
Can we measure the difference in the cables? Yes obviously resistance, capacitance, inductance etc. Could you pinpoint what makes that one cable brighter? Maybe. But if you can, would I have been able to pick that in the measurements before buying?
If there is an actual audible difference, I'm pretty sure one can measure it and if known beforehand one can predict what that effect will be. It's not that hard. I can't tell you if you like it or not, but I can tell you which of the two impacts the audio signal the least. And that is what it is about.
 

Ken Tajalli

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We do have science that gives an indication of how on average a speaker will be liked by a listener: the preference score. It obviously tells you nothing about how you specifically will like a speaker, but if you sell the damn things, that doesn't matter ;) Is it perfect? Not at all, but it does give us a good perspective into what on average makes a speaker a good speaker. it gave loads of good pointers on what to design for.

How do you know? You just listened to them? Well, that's not good enough. You'll need to prove you can hear the difference.

If there is an actual audible difference, I'm pretty sure one can measure it and if known beforehand one can predict what that effect will be. It's not that hard. I can't tell you if you like it or not, but I can tell you which of the two impacts the audio signal the least. And that is what it is about.
Some speaker cables can interact with some amplifiers, messing with their feedback and or output stage (can even blow them up!).
SIY would know about that better than me. But it is measurable.
 

PatF

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We do have science that gives an indication of how on average a speaker will be liked by a listener: the preference score. It obviously tells you nothing about how you specifically will like a speaker, but if you sell the damn things, that doesn't matter ;) Is it perfect? Not at all, but it does give us a good perspective into what on average makes a speaker a good speaker. it gave loads of good pointers on what to design for.
But it should not be that response frequency curve of loudspeaker should be as flat as possible ?
 

BDWoody

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I can see that you are not 100% pro measurement choice yourself. I’m sure you understand that some things are chosen for other reasons such as features, functionality etc. Or simply that you enjoy the sound.

I use measurements more to determine whether it has at least threshold competence for the purpose I have in mind, vs. chasing any particular number that in the end will mean nothing to me as a listener. I believe most here, at least those who have been here long (or have the background) look at it in a similar way. I also have a setup with a Kenwood Turntable, an old Luxman preamp, my Mitsubishi amp with the Diatone meters dancing across the front going into old Paradigm Studio 40's. I enjoy all of these systems immensely, although all are very different.

I heard differences in pretty much everything until I came here to congratulate myself on how great my fancy new Kilobuck DAC was, and while reading through the forum started to question whether I really could hear what I would have bet a lot that I thought I could hear.

Well, a humbling few hours later, after putting myself through a bit more of a rigorous listening process than I had ever done before (why would I? I never realized it could matter so much), I suddenly looked at the entire hi-fi world very differently.

Back went the Kilobuck DAC, and it so happened that shortly afterward those JBL speakers were all on B-stock sale, so I bought them all for the same price of the one DAC, that not long before I believed was removing new veils and improving my front to back depth...

People can have whatever reasons they want to buy whatever they want. For ME, understanding more about both the measurements side of it as well as the psychoacoustics side reduced the stress about what I may be missing out on if only I added another zero or two to my budget. All I need is for it to meet the thresholds I have, then I choose based on whatever reasons I want.
 

voodooless

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But it should not be that response frequency curve of loudspeaker should be as flat as possible ?
Kinda. But if you make sure that every single component before that is linear, it makes it all very much easier. I don't need a $$$ cable to tune the frequency response, you do that with EQ. It's controlled, repeatable, and dependable.
But it is measurable.
Well, good then! The point is indeed to figure out what is bad design, and what is not. Cables interacting with amps definitely is the "bad" category (of amp design).
 

PatF

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Kinda. But if you make sure that every single component before that is linear, it makes it all very much easier. I don't need a $$$ cable to tune the frequency response, you do that with EQ. It's controlled, repeatable, and dependable.
Yea it would and in my opinion is ridiculous to tune FR with cable. I was more wondering about your statement about measuring why do people like one loudspeaker more than the other. Maybe it is good for making loudspeakers which sells good but main goal in my opinion should be flat FR. It is too subjective to base loudspeaker design on listening preferences...
 

Newman

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I heard differences in pretty much everything until I came here to congratulate myself on how great my fancy new Kilobuck DAC was, and while reading through the forum started to question whether I really could hear what I would have bet a lot that I thought I could hear.

Well, a humbling few hours later, after putting myself through a bit more of a rigorous listening process than I had ever done before (why would I? I never realized it could matter so much), I suddenly looked at the entire hi-fi world very differently.

Back went the Kilobuck DAC, and it so happened that shortly afterward those JBL speakers were all on B-stock sale, so I bought them all for the same price of the one DAC, that not long before I believed was removing new veils and improving my front to back depth...

People can have whatever reasons they want to buy whatever they want. For ME, understanding more about both the measurements side of it as well as the psychoacoustics side reduced the stress about what I may be missing out on if only I added another zero or two to my budget.
Nice, quality post Woody.
 

voodooless

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Maybe it is good for making loudspeakers which sells good but main goal in my opinion should be flat FR. It is too subjective to base loudspeaker design on listening preferences...
Flat FR is only the start. What about the off-axis response, and room interaction deriving from that. Different countries have different styles of houses with vastly differing reflection and absorption properties at various frequencies. That leads to different preferences for bass response, as well as frequency response slant. It's a mess ;)
 

spartaman64

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Right! Einstein explained why earth appears flat at short distances... Yes, I seem to recall that mentioned somewhere near E=mc^2 ;)
i think he was talking about how to something moving at relativistic speeds towards earth it would indeed appear flat in their frame of reference. also, there is the famous phenomenon where muons created from cosmic ray collisions in the atmosphere should decay before reaching the ground and yet they do and it is found to be because of space contraction also. and the earth would appear to be more flat to those muons
 

pkane

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i think he was talking about how to something moving at relativistic speeds towards earth it would indeed appear flat in their frame of reference. also, there is the famous phenomenon where muons created from cosmic ray collisions in the atmosphere should decay before reaching the ground and yet they do and it is found to be because of space contraction also. and the earth would appear to be more flat to those muons

So all muons think the earth is flat? ;) I'm not going to talk to any muons from now on.
 

tmtomh

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I like this… it’s like an ASR survival clause.

This is a very interesting forum. I have only been reading it recently and it’s really….. well, I don’t really have any words for it other than some kind of testosterone fuelled cauldron of militant opinions (from both sides of the fence). I’m not referencing your reply at all there. Thank you for your reasoned response. It just looks like you have to be really careful of the language in your posts or you get shot down like a dog in the street with a barrage of broad assumptions about one’s knowledge and character. It’s a shame because there is clearly a lot of knowledge here, but the negative side of it kind of taints the whole forum with an aggressive nature when looking at it from an outsiders perspective.

Thanks for your reply. I clicked "Like" on it because I appreciate your thoughtfulness and what I take to be an invitation to dialogue.

Within that context, I would say I have a different perception of ASR than you do - not diametrically opposed, but still somewhat different.

There are definitely some folks here who respond quite harshly and ungenerously to others, and my perception is that they are indeed intolerant in the sense that they want to beat back and stamp out untrue and incorrect claims as opposed to engaging with the folks who make those claims to try to explain and educate. As someone who's firmly in the objectivist "camp," I will go one step further and agree that the majority of such folks here who behave like that are objectivists - but of course that's because the majority of members and posters here are objectivists, which is the converse of most other audio forums.

Because this site's culture is generally objectivist, and because it's about a highly technical and technologically-oriented hobby, it also tends to have a conversational tone that can feel harsh and unforgiving to those accustomed to something else. (I have a humanities background myself and teach at a small liberal-arts college where the culture is very different than here, so I totally get the potential for "culture shock" here.)

But with that said, my view is that a major part of the culture here is not about absolutism or harshness for its own sake - instead it's about rigor, which is something people are not necessarily accustomed to when discussing audio as a hobby. It matters quite a lot to folks here whether or not a filter with a million taps actually does anything beneficial (or audible at all) to the signal. It matters a lot to folks here whether or not a $2,000 DAC can improve on (or, as it turns out, even just equal!) the performance of a $300 DAC. And it matters a lot whether claims made by listeners or companies about why things supposedly sound better are even scientifically plausible, let alone true.

I've lost count of the number of times I have read a comment here where someone illustrates a point with a mathematical explanation or a chart or some other kind of practical use of data to demonstrate how a phenomenon actually works (or doesn't work). It's eye-opening and occasionally mind-blowing. I just don't get that from other forums where the dominant mode of discussion is more traditionally subjective. At those places I often feel like I'm being asked to be an audience to someone else's expression of their enthusiasm - that's fine, but it feels like testifying (in the religious sense) to me, and that's not what turns me on or gets me excited in audio (unless it's about artists/music that's unfamiliar to me - I love hearing about that and exploring based on others' recommendations).

So was I "careful of language" in my prior comment when explaining why I would not use the cheapest components when assembling a crossover for my endgame speakers? Yes of course I was careful - but not because I feared being "shot down like a dog in the street" by some of our harsher friends here. I was "careful" because your question was thought-provoking and I had to take a minute to consider not only what I would actually do in the situation, but also why I would make the choices I would make. Without the "why," I don't feel like I'm really learning anything.

Part of the reason I'm attracted to this place and find it so useful is precisely because flabby thinking never gets a free pass - I have to question assumptions and be rigorous. I find that highly stimulating and educational. I can also see how someone would find it a drag and a total buzzkill - after all, this is a hobby about fun. We all get pleasure out of different things (in addition to the core pleasure of listening to music of course).
 
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MattHooper

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Excellent post! I can relate!

So do I like the Revels being biased by the techno-science story behind them? Yeah probably. What I've found about speakers is if you've been fooled or they have genuine deficiencies you are always fighting to fix their weak points. Some that at first blush seemed good were fatally flawed and over time you fell out with them. Maggies prior to them using ribbon tweeters being a good example. Others might always have their own little deficiencies, but were so good otherwise you could live with them. Quad ESL-63s being good examples. With JBLs and Revels if used within their reasonable capabilities with regard to room size and loudness, you set them up, you adjust them some to get them working with the room, and they just stay good thereafter. They don't negatively bring attention to themselves. They might not be the sauciest partner in a positive sense, but they do what a good speaker is supposed to do by playing the music and getting out of the way. When you are used to going thru speakers and looking for the next thing that can be boring in a sense. So good they are boring. They still aren't perfect, but pretty competent all the way around. I would like to hear the largest Genelecs at some point. Genelecs generally seem too small and overpriced for what you get.

Words of wisdom.

Though in the end, individual experience is going to be just that.

My wife for instance will be ever satisfied to the end of her days by our smart speaker. But she's not an audiophile. There are audiophiles who have lived for many decades with speakers of all sorts of types - avid "Maggies For Life" or "ESL 57 For Life," or Klipsch, or Spendor/Harbeth or...you name it, there are audiophiles who have found lasting satisfaction. What makes us satisfied is always going to be a complex interaction of our character (which of course fluctuates) and our circumstances over time. That's why I'm ultimately dubious about any claims that "X is the path to happiness and satisfaction with your sound system." Some here feel they got off the treadmill in purchasing a certain type of system; others got off the treadmill with a different type of system.

For me, I don't require a high end system to enjoy music. (I suspect most here don't). I can enjoy music in my car, our smart speaker, the stereo on in the background, my desktop computer. For me to want to sit down and strictly listen to music in front of a hi-fi it takes something extra. Something about the sound that grabs me by the pants and sits my butt down. I'm super sensitive to the timbral aspects of sound, and if...to my perception...it's not right or pleasing me, I have little interest in owning the system for seated listening.

The Revel speakers presented me with an interesting dilemma. I auditioned a couple of them during a very wide-ranging binge of speaker auditioning.
As I said, the measurements corresponded in a general sense with what I heard: an extremely competent speaker. And yet...they didn't have an "it" factor that grabbed me. Whereas certain other speakers had just mesmerized me, making me want to listen to every bit of music I owned right then and there!
(I'm usually able to spend hours with a speaker, if I like, fortunately). So on one hand, intellectually I knew the Revels were engineered to sound excellent and that I'd likely select them from among many competitors in a blind test. On the other hand, I was left with my personal experience of listening as I would be listening if I actually bought them....and in those conditions, they weren't doing it for me, like some other speakers. (Again, this isn't saying the other speakers were "better," only that for whatever mix of reasons, I had different reactions to listening).

I could have said "well, ok, they aren't grabbing me while I'm auditioning them. But they are well engineered so perhaps if I buy them the listening experience will change for me over time in my home, and then they will wow me."

The problem there is, from my own experience, this has never happened to me. I've been able to hear a great many speakers multiple times over the years and I never, ever found a speaker that left me cold at first, later sounded much more compelling to me. And conversely, almost every speaker that has ever grabbed me in an audition, maintained that character on every encounter (or when I bought the speaker). So this "I don't really care for it now, but maybe if I roll the dice spending thousands of dollars in the hope I'll like them when owning them" wasn't really the chance I wanted to take.

I ended up with Joseph Audio speakers which blew my mind in multiple auditions, and have made me giddy with joy as an owner, ever since.

(BTW, consonant with the wisdom in your post, I do look for things that might stick out and annoy me over time. As they say "subtractive" issues can be better than "additive" issues over the long run - you'll notice issues that stick out more than technical issues that aren't so obvious without direct comparison with something 'better.' In that way the "boring" competence you speak of makes sense for many people)
 

MattHooper

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Thanks for your reply. I clicked "Like" on it because I appreciate your thoughtfulness and what I take to be an invitation to dialogue.

Within that context, I would say I have a different perception of ASR than you do - not diametrically opposed, but still somewhat different.

There are definitely some folks here who respond quite harshly and ungenerously to others, and my perception is that they are indeed intolerant in the sense that they want to beat back and stamp out untrue and incorrect claims as opposed to engaging with the folks who make those claims to try to explain and educate. As someone who's firmly in the objectivist "camp," I will go one step further and agree that the majority of such folks here who behave like that are objectivists - but of course that's because the majority of members and posters here are objectivists, which is the converse of most other audio forums.

Because this site's culture is generally objectivist, and because it's about a highly technical and technologically-oriented hobby, it also tends to have a conversational tone that can feel harsh and unforgiving to those accustomed to something else. (I have a humanities background myself and teach at a small liberal-arts college where the culture is very different than here, so I totally get the potential for "culture shock" here.)

But with that said, my view is that a major part of the culture here is not about absolutism or harshness for its own sake - instead it's about rigor, which is something people are not necessarily accustomed to when discussing audio as a hobby. It matters quite a lot to folks here whether or not a filter with a million taps actually does anything beneficial (or audible at all) to the signal. It matters a lot to folks here whether or not a $2,000 DAC can improve on (or, as it turns out, even just equal!) the performance of a $300 DAC. And it matters a lot whether claims made by listeners or companies about why things supposedly sound better are even scientifically plausible, let alone true. I've lost count of the number of times I have read a comment here where someone illustrates a point with a mathematical explanation or a chart or some other kind of practical use of data to demonstrate how a phenomenon actually works (or doesn't work). It's eye-opening and occasionally mind-blowing. I just don't get that from other forums where the dominant mode of discussion is more traditionally subjective. At those places I often feel like I'm being asked to be an audience to someone else's expression of their enthusiasm - that's fine, but it feels like testifying (in the religious sense) to me, and that's not what turns me on or gets me excited in audio (unless it's about artists/music that's unfamiliar to me - I love hearing about that an exploring based on others' recommendations).

So was I "careful of language" in my prior comment when explaining why I would not use the cheapest components when assembling a crossover for my endgame speakers? Yes of course I was careful - but not because I feared being "shot down like a god in the street" by some of our harsher friends here. I was "careful" because your question was thought-provoking and I had to take a minute to consider not only what I would actually do in the situation, but also why I would make the choices I would make. Without the "why," I don't feel like I'm really learning anything.

Part of the reason I'm attracted to this place and find it so useful is precisely because flabby thinking never gets a free pass - I have to question assumptions and be rigorous. I find that highly stimulating and educational. I can also see how someone would find it a drag and a total buzzkill - after all, this is a hobby about fun. We all get pleasure out of different things (in addition to the core pleasure of listening to music of course).

What a great post!!!
 

MattHooper

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I am aware of the limitations of our hearing. I just don’t fall in the same camp as the purely measurement oriented folks, I just think it’s a bit militant. To think we know how to measure all aspects of hearing is a bit delusional. Science, and particularly human biology is complex. There are no measurements that give us any indication of wether we will like a particular speaker or not. Yet we make a choice. Why? Why do we make that choice? Pleasure. What is pleasure? A series of neurones firing to release a hormone that acts on receptors. All easily explained by science yet it results in the need for a subjective choice due to preference.

The thing is, the "maybe science can't yet measure everything we can hear" objection can be overcome in another way: Blind testing.

If someone thinks he hears a difference between A and B, despite current inability to measure it, that can still be tested: Can the person in fact hear the difference he believes, when sighted bias is ruled out under blind test conditions.

It's not for nothing that many "subjectivists" want to wave away the relevance of blind testing, because it really does put their feet to the fire even despite the "I can hear what science can't measure" objections.


I have 2 sets of speaker cables. Only two, and of relatively cheap price because I don’t believe that there are huge differences in cables. Just the makeup changing their specs. What I do know is that one set of cables sounds better when paired with my Naim Uniti Nova. The cheaper pair. The more expensive pair sound too bright after a while for some reason. I wanted the more expensive pair to sound better but they didn’t. That didn’t seem to fit with expectation bias. I will add that I can’t hear this with A/B comparison but only after hours of listening. Can we measure the difference in the cables? Yes obviously resistance, capacitance, inductance etc.

A while back I switched music servers, from using itunes (streaming uncompressed files to my Benchmark DAC) to a raspberry pie server streaming the same files. When I switched I seemed to perceive a slight difference in the sound, like the music sounded a bit more brittle and bright. This was against my expectations, as technically I had no expectation for the sound to change at all. So that was bugging me.

Knowing this issue seemed dubious on technical grounds, and knowing that perception can be influenced by any change...even if we aren't expecting a certain result...I had a friend help me blind test between the servers (randomized switching etc). The result was I could detect no reliable difference at all. My guesses were completely random. There was no added brightness/brittleness to cue me as to which server was being played.

Afterward I just stopped worrying about it, and frankly realized my system sounded the same as it ever did. (There was no issue that cropped up over time, after the blind tests).

I believe you are suggesting that you may be hearing a difference that wouldn't show up under quick switching in blind testing, but does so over time in casual listening. I suppose in principle that's not impossible. But for me the more plausible proposition is that if there is a sonic difference to be heard, it will be heard under quick switching/blind testing, and if there is a detectable difference, long term listening will be better at determining it's afffect on lots of different music and if it's something you like or not.
 
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