Looking for monitors

[ai studio]

Hi Hello
I'm looking for new studio monitors
Budget up to 1000 euros

I looked at APS KLASIK 2020

But they are not currently sold where I live

I was recommended kali
in 8 to hear

Does anyone have an experience with them?

Are they better than APS or less good

 

[AudioStudies]

The original Kali In 8 got a poor review here at ASR. The have a Version 2 now, can't speak for that one.

 

[ai studio]

Ok thanks I'm not updated

So yes - version 2.

Is it worth taking the risk to order without hearing KLASIK 2020

Or better version KALI V 2.

The hearing field is not far but not too close
About a meter from the speakers

Acoustically treated room 6 meters long
2 width.
With have an offer for more competitors maybe better thanks.

 

[AudioStudies]

Ok thanks I'm not updated

So yes - version 2.

Is it worth taking the risk to order without hearing KLASIK 2020

Or better version KALI V 2.

The hearing field is not far but not too close
About a meter from the speakers

Acoustically treated room 6 meters long
2 width.
With have an offer for more competitors maybe better thanks.

I don't know. There was a positive review of the Version 2, but it wasn't from Amir.

 

[napilopez]

The original Kali In 8 got a poor review here at ASR. The have a Version 2 now, can't speak for that one.

It didn't receive a bad review, not really. The original model Amir recieved had a damaged woofer, and unsurprisngly that one sounded bad. The replacement unit Amir recieved measured well, but Amir didn't get to listen to it. The Version 2 measured by Erin performed very well.

 

[AudioStudies]

It didn't receive a bad review, not really. The original model Amir recieved had a damaged woofer, and unsurprisngly that one sounded bad. The replacement unit Amir recieved measured well, but Amir didn't get to listen to it. The Version 2 measured by Erin performed very well.

I didn't know about the bad woofer thing. For some reason, I can't find Amir's measurement of the replacement for Version 1. I did see Erin's review of the V2 and it is impressive.

 

[ai studio]

Has anyone done a comparison between the monitors
kali
To
aps klasik 2020?
Because they also have good reviews and are a bit more expensive
But maybe they are worth the price a lot more than KALI.?
In terms of quality and response
Although I like to hear a meter distance at least or a little more from the monitors To hear the whole reaction in the room space is more impressive And also hear at a slightly higher volume And get a wider stereo image
The question is how the two monitors respond in the hearing field.
Not so close.
And also in terms of quality and feeling of the small details in the mix.
I have not yet seen a comparison between kali / klasik.

 

[sweetchaos]

Is it worth taking the risk to order without hearing KLASIK 2020

Without seeing spinorama data, I would be cautious to purchase any speaker (with the exception of a few companies like Neumann, Genelec, etc).
Opinion: I assume all speakers are badly designed, until we see data to prove otherwise.

Kali IN-8v2 measured great. See Erins' review.

Here's a comparison between v1 and v2:

Spoiler

It has some nice improvements over v1 that's worth waiting for.

If Kali IN-8v2 is too large for your space, I would look at Genelec 8030's.
Amir's review.
It's 535 EUR /each, so within your budget.

 

[sweetchaos]

I didn't know about the bad woofer thing. For some reason, I can't find Amir's measurement of the replacement for Version 1. I did see Erin's review of the V2 and it is impressive.

It's in the middle of Amir's original review....Scroll down past the first 2 photos of the speaker, and you'll see the link in red...right before the CEA2034 spinorama graph.

Here's the link:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...udio-monitor-review.10897/page-29#post-318617

 

[ai studio]

Without seeing spinorama data, I would be cautious to purchase any speaker (with the exception of a few companies like Neumann, Genelec, etc).
Opinion: I assume all speakers are badly designed, until we see data to prove otherwise.

Kali IN-8v2 measured great. See Erins' review.

Here's a comparison between v1 and v2:

Spoiler

View attachment 141148

It has some nice improvements over v1 that's worth waiting for.

If Kali IN-8v2 is too large for your space, I would look at Genelec 8030's.
Amir's review.
It's 535 EUR /each, so within your budget.

Ok thank you
For your response
. Why is spinorama data important? What is it helpful and / or harmful? And not be impressed by the monitor based on hearing or responses ..

It should not be too large by 8 inches Because the room is 6 feet long and 2 feet wide And there is professional acoustics and ARC treatment software I currently have a mackie hr624mk2 I am looking for a significant change in monitor quality.

 

[sweetchaos]

Ok thank you
For your response
. Why is spinorama data important? What is it helpful and / or harmful? And not be impressed by the monitor based on hearing or responses ..

Because of dozens of years of research into what makes a good speaker, using double blind tests at Harman.

Spinorama will tell you approx 80% what you need to know about a speaker. It tells you the tonality, dispersion (narrow, wide), in-room response, and frequency extension (bass output). It tells you whether you need a subwoofer or not.

The few things it doesnt tell, is distortion handling, which is why Erin and Amir provide those separately. It doesnt tell you how loud a speaker will play...Erin provides those graphs. It doesnt tell you speaker hiss, but usually Erin and Amir provide that information on a few speakers.

Amir and Erin's review help us weed out the garbage from the best performing speakers. Without this information, we're back in the stone age talking about how good our purchased speakers sound *subjectively* on some random online source. Oh wait, that's still happening.

Stick around and learn about spinorama measurements. Both Amir and Erin have youtube videos talking about interpreting the data.
Erin's playlist:

Amir doesnt have a playlist, so just look for those videos.

 

[ai studio]

Because of dozens of years of research into what makes a good speaker, using double blind tests at Harman.

Spinorama will tell you approx 80% what you need to know about a speaker. It tells you the tonality, dispersion (narrow, wide), in-room response, and frequency extension (bass output). It tells you whether you need a subwoofer or not.

The few things it doesnt tell, is distortion handling, which is why Erin and Amir provide those separately. It doesnt tell you how loud a speaker will play...Erin provides those graphs. It doesnt tell you speaker hiss, but usually Erin and Amir provide that information on a few speakers.

Amir and Erin's review help us weed out the garbage from the best performing speakers. Without this information, we're back in the stone age talking about how good our purchased speakers sound *subjectively* on some random online source. Oh wait, that's still happening.

Stick around and learn about spinorama measurements. Both Amir and Erin have youtube videos talking about interpreting the data.
Erin's playlist:

Amir doesnt have a playlist, so just look for those videos.

Okay thank you very much

 

[ai studio]

Monitors I currently have are
Mackie HR624mk2
They are A little more
expensive with the THX standard
But I'm missing a bass response
I have not made the comparison between them and I have no way at the moment
but
I'm looking for better quality monitors than I currently have.

 

[sweetchaos]

Monitors I currently have are
Mackie HR624mk2

My first thoughts about Mackie after seeing the CR3-X measurements:

That is one badly designed on-axis speaker.
Not to mention it doesnt play very loud (limiter kicks in after 86db) or have any bass whatsoever (drops below 100hz).
I wouldn't listen to these, even if you pay me.
I would have called it a day, but then realized that they are US$90/pair, so that makes sense. Too many compromises for this price point.

The upgrade to yours HR824mk2 are US$1600/pair and those look much better.
Spinorama for mk1? from unknown source.

I think these have potential to be good, but only with EQ.
Again, this looks highly smoothed, so seeing the full spinorama would be needed to make the final call.

My other recommendation for well-designed speaker at your price point is the Neumann KH80 DSP (at 480 EUR/ea).

Exceptionally designed. The limitation with these is they don't play very loud. But that makes sense giving their smaller than normal size. A sub would be needed here.

Genelec 8030C's review:

Excellent speaker. Able to play loud for nearfield to midfield. Excellent distortion handling. No problems recommending this.

Here's a comparison of the 3:
https://comparesizes.com/comparison/Neumann-KH80-vs-Genelec-8030-vs-Kali-In8v2/1626327662888

yellow - kali in-8v2
blue - genelec 8030
red - neumann kh80

Kali IN-8v2:

Comparing all 3 in terms of -6db point:
Neuman KH 80 DSP = 48Hz
Genelec 8030 = 46Hz
Kali IN-8v2 = 39Hz

I would still prefer the Genelec 8030's over these Neumann's (for several reasons, like ability to hit higher levels of playback), unless you need the smallest size possible (in which case Neumann KH80 would be my pick).

Get Kali IN-8v2 if you need high output (it has a 8" woofer) and/or if you're moving around (or up/down) a lot, where the coaxial drive will help to make the vertical dispersion much more even than a non-coaxial speakers like the Genelec 8030/Neumann KH80's.

 

[ai studio]

Thanks for the extended information

The size of my room is 6 meters
Length 2.60 Width
(Container) Mobile
This is an acoustically treated room
I have GIK bass traps With
limiter
and
Panels 244
From the top of the sides also with a limiter
It was well taken care ofIn places where there are very prominent bass Pretty good
response in the room along with ARC/624 facility software Of course 60 Hz
a very noticeable bass
But with ARC software
It's a fine fix
kali
8 -- were they too big?
Or will it work out in the room?
Along with acoustic repair software ARC
The distance between the monitors
About 1 meter
You can see in the picture

So actually according to what you describe
kali nice
No less than Neumann or
Genelec

And better than mackie
624

what about
Neumann kh 120?

 

[sweetchaos]

I didn't mention Neumann KH120, since it's outside of your budget.
I believe they are 650 EUR/ea...so will be 30% over your budget.

They measure just as good as KH80's but with deeper bass of course:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...asurements-take-two.11323/page-22#post-425238

The spinorama was provided by Neumann, so I would expect the measurements to be accurate. Although, I would personally ignore the bass bump at 55hz. I'm not sure if this is real or some artifact of their measurement method.
Anyway, they will play louder than KH80 and with less distortion, so it's a worthwhile upgrade if you need more output over the KH80's.

Regarding digital room correction, I see that you're using IK Multimedia's ARC 3, which is better than not using any room correction.
Since you have a measurement microphone, you can easily find the best spot for your studio monitors and each wall by moving the speaker and re-measuring.
The recommendation according to a Genelec engineer is to place the speaker close to the wall, because the boost in bass energy can easily be compensated (with room correction, using EQ).
Here's what I mean:

How to get a good stereo image?

You said that the studio monitors are 1m away from each other, and if you're sitting equilateral triangle, you should be 1m away as well.

Studio monitors have a critical distance, where the direct sound and diffuse sound change.
Genelec has a great table that summarizes these concepts at https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors

Spoiler

Genelec 8330 (same as 8030) is 5.125" woofer. => has critical distance of ~1.8m
Genelec 8350 (same as 8050) is 8.0625" woofer. => has critical distance of ~2.1m.
This means that if you have a smaller 5" woofer studio monitor, then you shouldn't be sitting more than 1.8m away from them.
This means that if you have a larger 8" woofer studio monitor, then you shouldn't be sitting more than 2.1m away from them.

The table also shows the minimum distance where the summation of the drivers occurs. If you sit too close to the speaker, you're not hearing the proper summation of drivers.
For 8330 it's around 0.5m, which means you don't want to sit as close as 0.5m away from them.
For 8350 it's around 0.75m, which means you don't want to sit as close as 0.75m away from them.

Now, I'm making the assumption...I would take the guidelines above from 8350 to apply to Kali IN-8v2 as well, since they're both 8" woofers.
All this information tells me that a larger size (8" woofer) studio monitors can still work if you're sitting at least 0.75m away, and no more than 2.1m away from them.

I hope that helps.

 

[ai studio]

I understand Thank you very much !

I didn't mention Neumann KH120, since it's outside of your budget.
I believe they are 650 EUR/ea...so will be 30% over your budget.

They measure just as good as KH80's but with deeper bass of course:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...asurements-take-two.11323/page-22#post-425238
View attachment 142038
The spinorama was provided by Neumann, so I would expect the measurements to be accurate. Although, I would personally ignore the bass bump at 55hz. I'm not sure if this is real or some artifact of their measurement method.
Anyway, they will play louder than KH80 and with less distortion, so it's a worthwhile upgrade if you need more output over the KH80's.

Regarding digital room correction, I see that you're using IK Multimedia's ARC 3, which is better than not using any room correction.
Since you have a measurement microphone, you can easily find the best spot for your studio monitors and each wall by moving the speaker and re-measuring.
The recommendation according to a Genelec engineer is to place the speaker close to the wall, because the boost in bass energy can easily be compensated (with room correction, using EQ).
Here's what I mean:

How to get a good stereo image?

You said that the studio monitors are 1m away from each other, and if you're sitting equilateral triangle, you should be 1m away as well.

Studio monitors have a critical distance, where the direct sound and diffuse sound change.
Genelec has a great table that summarizes these concepts at https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors

Spoiler

View attachment 142042

Genelec 8330 (same as 8030) is 5.125" woofer. => has critical distance of ~1.8m
Genelec 8350 (same as 8050) is 8.0625" woofer. => has critical distance of ~2.1m.
This means that if you have a smaller 5" woofer studio monitor, then you shouldn't be sitting more than 1.8m away from them.
This means that if you have a larger 8" woofer studio monitor, then you shouldn't be sitting more than 2.1m away from them.

The table also shows the minimum distance where the summation of the drivers occurs. If you sit too close to the speaker, you're not hearing the proper summation of drivers.
For 8330 it's around 0.5m, which means you don't want to sit as close as 0.5m away from them.
For 8350 it's around 0.75m, which means you don't want to sit as close as 0.75m away from them.

Now, I'm making the assumption...I would take the guidelines above from 8350 to apply to Kali IN-8v2 as well, since they're both 8" woofers.
All this information tells me that a larger size (8" woofer) studio monitors can still work if you're sitting at least 0.75m away, and no more than 2.1m away from them.

I hope that helps.

 

[blabla]

my opinion, maybe it helps: i have tried the Kali IN-8 v2 (≈800€), the IN-5 (≈650€) and the APS Klasik 2020 (≈1050€) (and psi A17m for 3500€). My measurements were amateurish, just to check if there any big problems in my room. in my little room (3.5x2.5m) listening distance 1.4m quite similar curves. the IN sound more "direct" the Klasik more layed back. Sorry for my hifi words. English is not my mother tongue. None of the speaker have any major faults. I do not have to work in them, so will decide for the Klasik because of build quality and design aspects. i can eq all of them a little with my RME to my needs/room. I do not need the low end power of the IN8. They are really huge speaker. The IN-5 are more than loud and deep in my 85db/1.4m listening. maybe i would decide for the IN5 if money was the main issue, or they would spend more on build quality. they feel and are plastic. but sound is incredible. the psi A17m were maybe 10% over in all aspect but tripple, fourtimes the price without low or high pass adjustments.

 

[ai studio]

Thanks for the information

my opinion, maybe it helps: i have tried the Kali IN-8 v2 (≈800€), the IN-5 (≈650€) and the APS Klasik 2020 (≈1050€) (and psi A17m for 3500€). My measurements were amateurish, just to check if there any big problems in my room. in my little room (3.5x2.5m) listening distance 1.4m quite similar curves. the IN sound more "direct" the Klasik more layed back. Sorry for my hifi words. English is not my mother tongue. None of the speaker have any major faults. I do not have to work in them, so will decide for the Klasik because of build quality and design aspects. i can eq all of them a little with my RME to my needs/room. I do not need the low end power of the IN8. They are really huge speaker. The IN-5 are more than loud and deep in my 85db/1.4m listening. maybe i would decide for the IN5 if money was the main issue, or they would spend more on build quality. they feel and are plastic. but sound is incredible. the psi A17m were maybe 10% over in all aspect but tripple, fourtimes the price without low or high pass adjustments.